Phil Williams – Training At Gold’s Gym – Bodybuilding Legends Podcast with John Hansen [S7E4]
John Hansen:
Season seven, episode four of the Bodybuilding Legends podcast is brought to you by our sponsor Old School Labs. All right, welcome everybody to another episode of the bodybuilding legends podcast where we are continuing to talk about old school bodybuilding and our guest this week is Phil Williams. And Phil, of course, I’ve talked about on the show before, he was the 1985 NPC Nationals winner and he also won the 1988 Chicago Pro Show and I got a chance to know Phil pretty good when I did an interview with him a couple of years ago and then I got to see him again when I was out in California over Memorial day weekend. I wanted to have Phil on the show to talk about his memories of old school bodybuilding. He not only trained at Gold’s gym in the 1980s, but he also trained to George Turner’s gym before he moved to California and that was in St Louis.
John Hansen:
And for those of you who don’t know, George Turner was a real old school legend as far as training and gurus and things like that. He was one of the first real bodybuilding trainers and he was out in St Louis and he trained Tony Pearson, I think he trained Ken Waller for a while and helped a lot of bodybuilders. I think Samir went through his gym, I think Tom Platz did. He had one of the best gyms in the country and a lot of Midwest best bodybuilders came out of George Turner’s gym, including Phil Williams. We’re going to talk to Phil about those days, his early days in bodybuilding, as well as his days training at Gold’s gym. You’ve got a great conversation coming up with Phil Williams in a minute. I do want to mention that we are brought to you by our sponsor of Old School Labs. I’ve been with Old School Labs for several years now.
John Hansen:
This is the supplement company that draws on the wisdom of the golden era of fitness and bodybuilding to offer unique supplements for the discerning athlete. I’m talking no proprietary blends, no artificial flavors or sweeteners and you may have heard of their award-winning fat burner ‘Vintage Burn’. This is the world’s first muscle-preserving fat burner or ‘Vintage Blast’, which is the world’s first two-stage pre-workout. Old School Labs is the only brand that I use, trust and associate my name with. They’re the brand I used to when the Natural History Universe contest in 2012. They’re also the company that sponsored Breon Ansley who is the 2017 Classic Physique Olympia champion and this year’s 2018 Classic Physique Arnold Classic champion and he is gearing up for September, for when they are going to have the next Olympia Classic Physique champion and Breon is hoping to defend his title.
John Hansen:
They also sponsored the 1983 Mr Olympia Samir Bannout and bodybuilding legend Tom Platz. Use the discount code LEGENDS12 and you will get a 12% discount off your order at oldschoollabs.com, or you can go to amazon.com and make your order there also. Old School Labs, supplements that makes sense.
John Hansen:
All right, so here we go. Here is our interview with Phil Williams, 1985 NPC nationals winner about these old school days and bodybuilding. All right. Welcome to the Bodybuilding Legends podcast and I have my friend Phil Williams on the line with us today. Phil, of course, was one of the best NPC national winners ever in 1985 and then he went on to win the Chicago Pro show in 1988 and we are talking about old school bodybuilding today on the show. Phil has many years training at the Old School’s gym back in the 1980s and before that he was training in St Louis at George Turner’s gym. So we thought we’d have Phil back and talk about some stories about the good old days. How you doing Phil?
Phil Williams:
I’m good, John. I’m good.
John Hansen:
All right, well first of all, congratulations Phil again for getting that Muscle Beach Hall of Fame at Memorial Day about a month ago, that had to be a good honor, huh?
Phil Williams:
Oh that was great, John. I never expected that. So yeah, that was definitely very good.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah, it was great to see you recognized for your physique and the career that you had. You know, cause I think you’re sort of the, Joe Wheatley called you the enigma. So it’s sort of like you’re a champion to a lot of people?
Phil Williams:
Right, right.
John Hansen:
So what was the reason for that nickname, Phil? I mean he mentioned that George Turner gave that to you, right?
The Old School days and how it all started for Phil
Phil Williams:
Yeah, George gave me that. That was back in the seventies I’m going to say about 77′, 78′. What I did was I used to leave high school in Kansas city, Missouri at 2:35 in the afternoon, I’d get on the highway and St Louis is across the state, right? About 265 miles, highway miles. It’d probably be 280 almost 300 miles by the time you get into the city. And I get there Friday night, I train Friday night, I’d sleep in my car, I trained Saturday morning, I’d rest, go back to my car or hang out in the gym with the guys, trained Saturday night, train Sunday morning, and then Sunday afternoon I’d head back and get back to school for Monday morning.
John Hansen:
How many hours of a drive was it?
Phil Williams:
That’s about a five hour drive.
John Hansen:
Wow. Holy shit. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And back then the speed limit was 55 so it may have taken longer. Who knows? But I did that for months before anyone knew what I was doing. They say, well, I thought you lived in Kansas city. I said, “yeah, I do”. And they said “Oh”. And it was wintertime, one of the guys that worked there saw me in the car trying to sleep, I was trying to stay warm with blankets, right? It’s probably in January or February or something, one of the colder months. So he comes up and goes, knocks on the window, goes, “what are you doing?” So from there he brought me into the gym and let me sleep there, George had a loft up on the second floor, I slept up there. So he finds out about it later on, George does, of course, and that’s when he invites me to come stay at his house. And the story started at that point, that’s when the craziest time of my life was being around George.
John Hansen:
Wow, so what was the gym like? At 17 and training there it had to be a great gym for you to travel that far.
Phil Williams:
Actually, I’ll tell you what, it was one of the best gyms I’ve ever seen. To this day, it’s still better than most, 99% of the gyms that I see now. Yeah the old school equipment, he got his blueprint for his equipment from Dan Howard and Dan Howard, Joe Gold, and George had the same blueprint, so it was the same equipment. It was very heavy duty. I mean it was manufactured, it was called the Iron Company back then, if you looked on all the pulleys, it said Iron Company and when I went out to Joe Gold’s gym later on, years later, it was the same equipment.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, so there was nothing like it, nothing like it. I mean, everything else in comparison was terrible.
John Hansen:
Was it a big gym?
Phil Williams:
Oh, it was huge, it was an old Kroger grocery store and in the back of the gym he had the iron factory and he had equipment made and he sold equipment out of the gym. So the gym was actually a show floor. Guys who were wanting to come – the equipment was so clean you could eat off the floor. George was very anal about keeping, you didn’t drop anything, you didn’t do anything, you didn’t touch a mirror. He would throw you out if you touched a mirror. I kid you not. I saw him throw people out left, right and center all the time for any reason. Not wearing the right shoes, not wearing the right gym clothes. I mean, you name it. If he was in a bad mood, it was even worse. There are crazy stories that came out of there.
John Hansen:
How old was he back then, Phil?
Phil Williams:
I think George was about 56 and I would have been 17 so yeah. Yeah. I was 17, 18, so George would have had to be 55, 56 years old. Still in good shape, he still worked out.
John Hansen:
Yeah, I know. He was in good shape for a long time when he got older.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, and I mean, there were guys who used to come from Chicago. There was the guy that came from Chicago, I don’t know remember the guy’s name, of course. This was years ago, and he drove down from Chicago to St Louis to have George take a look at him. George looks at him for about 30 seconds, it was in his office. The guy took off his shirt and you started to see that George was so “you don’t have to, you don’t have to”. He goes, “I’d recommend golf or tennis for a guy like you”. He goes, “sorry you wasted your time,” and threw the guy out of the office.
Phil Williams:
He was nuts, man. He, God, I remember him doing some of the craziest things in the gym. He’d be in his office and he had a microphone, right? He’d get on the microphone and he’d see a guy doing chins across the gym and told him, “hey guy, it’s like a spider hanging there”. That’s the way he talks, right.
Phil Williams:
He’d pick fun, he’d make fun of anybody. You couldn’t take it and you got angry at him, “screw you Georgie, now get out of my fucking gym! Yeah. I don’t need you here. Get out of here!” There are people who opened gyms in St Louis with the number of people that he threw out and did well.
John Hansen:
Oh really? So who was training there when you were 17 were there any big names there?
Phil Williams:
Anyone that you would have heard of today. I’ll tell you what, one of the best he had was a lightweight by the name of Clif Koons. I don’t know if you remember him, he was one of the best. Jimmy Seger was there for a while, he did well in Missouri. There were a few guys, but really, no one that you would really know. I can remember Clif Koons would’ve been the best.
John Hansen:
When you were going down there on the weekends and training when you were 17, the atmosphere was really good when you went on the weekends?
Phil Williams:
Hardcore atmosphere. Yeah, I mean you don’t see that today. I mean it’s all changed. But yeah, these guys trained hard, everything was basic compound and George had two or three of everything so you never had to wait in line for anything, the gym was never really crowded.
John Hansen:
You were getting in like four workouts over the weekend, right?
Phil Williams:
Right, exactly. Yeah, and compared to the gym that I used in Overland park, Kansas or the YMCA. I mean, there was no comparison.
John Hansen:
Didn’t Ken Waller train there too, for a while?
Phil Williams:
Yeah. George put on a show in 78′, it was the Heart of the Midwest. We had a power lifting meet and he had a bodybuilding competition and I met Ken Waller there in 88′. I met Mentzer there, met Ron Tuefel there, I met Boyer Coe there, I met Joe Reeder there. I met Bob Hoffman there, right? All these different guys all came to George’s show.
John Hansen:
When these guys came into town to guest pose, would they train at the gym also?
Phil Williams:
Yeah, I learned a lot from Mentzer training there, actually I learned a lot more from Mentzer than anyone else. I spent time with him, had lunch with him. I mean, he stayed there about four or five days, maybe almost a week.
John Hansen:
Did you watch him train or did you get to train with him?
Phil Williams:
I’ve watched him train, trained with him a little bit, yeah. I learned a whole lot from Mike. And that’s the time he was at his fittest, he was very popular, that’s the year he won the Universe.
John Hansen:
78′, yeah?
Phil Williams:
Yeah, that was a good time. It was a very good place to be.
John Hansen:
When did you meet Ron Tuefel cause he was a great bodybuilder, a lot of the younger guys don’t know of Ron Tuefel and sometimes I’ll put a picture of him up on Facebook and they’re like, “wow, who’s that guy?” I try to tell people, “that guy was unbelievable. At 18, 19 years old he was winning national titles.”
Phil Williams:
Ron would have been, in 78′ Ron would have been like, lets see, won the Mr Teenage Mr America in 1975 at 18 or 19 he was like 21,22 years old, in 78′, I mean, he was amazing physique.
John Hansen:
Right? Everybody thought he was going to win the America that year.
Phil Williams:
Well, that year he lost to Tony Pearson. You remember that? That show was held in Cincinnati and I went to that show and ah, screaming his head off. That was my first Mr America and we thought Ron Tuefel would win and Tony Pearson took it from him.
John Hansen:
But Pearson used to train at George’s gym too, right?
Phil Williams:
He did. He was there in 76′ and in 76′ he came out here to California and started training at Gold’s on Venice, when it was on second street.Ron came later on, this was two years after that, and that was the last AAU Mr America. No, he went back in 79′ but that was his third, He went 76′, 77′, 78′, he won the lightweight, it was a short class. I’m sorry I take that back. You had the short class back then you didn’t have weight classes.
John Hansen:
He beat Tom Platz that year and Tom looked really good.
Phil Williams:
He beat Tom Platz all three, he beat Tom in 77′, 78′, and I’m going to say 76′ also.
John Hansen:
Yeah he did. Then Tom got on the Universe cause Ron left the building and then outposed against Tony…
Phil Williams:
You know what happened? I don’t know if you remember this, this is what happened. Tony Pearson, they had opposed down for the American team to go to the World Championships of the Mr. Universe. Tom Platz, with a different set of judges, turns around and beats Tony Pearson. Then they took off to Europe and went to Nabba for a while.
John Hansen:
They were in the same class because in the height classes Tony was in the medium height class but Tom was in the short class because he was heavier, bigger.
Phil Williams:
Right right, so they ended up in the same weight class, which would have been for the world championship for the Mr Universe.
John Hansen:
And then Tom ends up winning the Mr Universe and turns pro and he’s at the Olympia the next year.
Phil Williams:
That’s it. Yeah.
John Hansen:
Did you ever get to meet Tony out there or was he gone by the time you got there?
Phil Williams:
No, Tony was gone by the time I got there, I didn’t meet Tony until I came out here.
Phil Williams:
Tony was gone by the time I got there. I didn’t meet Tony until I came out here. Or I met Tony in Europe and out here, but I never saw Tony in St. Louis. That was before my time.
John Hansen:
Okay. Yeah, because Tony I think went to California in the late ’70s right? When he was young.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. ’76. Yeah. He came out in ’76.
John Hansen:
He only won, I think he won the America when he was like 21, right? Wasn’t he really young, too?
Phil Williams:
He won it in ’78. He was 21 years old. Yeah. He’s probably the second youngest winner, next to Casey.
John Hansen:
Right. Right, exactly. Besides Clif Koons, you really didn’t see anybody else who went on to national prominence?
Phil Williams:
Not really. No. I met a guy you’d know, that used to come down there. Remember Mario Nieves?
John Hansen:
Oh yeah. Mario Nieves, from Chicago, yeah.
Phil Williams:
Nieves, yeah. He used to come down. George knew him very well. And there’s another guy, I don’t know if he was from … he may have been from Illinois, a guy by the name of Houston [Shep 00:00:49].
John Hansen:
Okay. I don’t remember him.
Phil Williams:
Who had a good physique. You may not remember. Okay. Yeah. You may not remember him, but Mario you’d remember, because he’s from Chicago area, I think.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Mario was winning everything in Chicago for a while.
Phil Williams:
Right? He won the Junior America one year. Then he came down to the Heart of America, and got beat by the guy I just mentioned.
John Hansen:
Oh, okay.
Phil Williams:
He was already Junior Mr. America, which didn’t make sense to me at the time.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah. That doesn’t make sense. I remember that Heart of America contest. I remember hearing about that when I was a kid.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, that was a big show.
John Hansen:
That was a big regional show.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, they had powerlifting, Mike Bridges came down and won his class.
John Hansen:
Oh, okay.
Phil Williams:
Powerlifting. They had a few other big name guys, during the ’70s. These were real big name guys.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think-
Phil Williams:
George had a lot of influence.
John Hansen:
I think Mario went up against Tony that year, in ’78. I think that was at the … either the Junior America or the Junior USA, and I think Tony beat him.
Phil Williams:
That would’ve been ’77. Because Tony won the Junior USA and the Junior Mr. America in ’77. He won both of them.
John Hansen:
Oh, okay. I thought that was the year he won the America.
Phil Williams:
That was a good show. Yeah.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
He won the America in ’78, a year later.
John Hansen:
Right, right. When George Turner found out you were sleeping upstairs in the loft, then he took you into his house?
Phil Williams:
He took me into his house, gave me a bedroom. Yeah. He was a good guy. George was funny, though. He was the type of guy who would, if he liked you, he’d do that for you, he’d do anything in the world for you. But at the same time, I became his whipping boy. If you know what I’m saying, I don’t know if you know what I mean by that, but in a sense, he would like you, but he also was very abusive in a sense.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah. George was the one-
Phil Williams:
Verbally. He wouldn’t touch you physically. But he would, hey, he’d call you this, he had … his language was just unbelievable. No wonder his kids, I never saw the kids in the house. They’d all kind of scatter when he’d come home. And his wife, she was abused. He was a very abusive guy, all around.
John Hansen:
He is. Wow.
Phil Williams:
And living in his house, it was cool, but it wasn’t cool.
John Hansen:
Yeah. So you would just stay there on the weekends, then? When you came up for the weekend?
Phil Williams:
Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much. And then once I got out of high school, I moved there, and tried to get an apartment right away. And Clif Koons and I actually shared a small apartment for a short time.
John Hansen:
Oh, really? Okay.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Yeah. But if you look at gyms, look at gyms back in the seventies, we had one in Kansas that was quite good, actually. It was called Moffitt’s gym. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that. He actually did quite well. But other than that, you had George Turner’s. This is before all the gym chains were evolved, like Gold’s Gym, the franchises, all the powerhouse gyms, the franchises. This was before all that.
John Hansen:
Before all that. Right.
Phil Williams:
None of that exists. So yeah.
Winning competitions as a teen and competing against the best
John Hansen:
Were you competing back then, Phil?
Phil Williams:
Oh, yeah. In 70 … let me see. I took second in the Mr. Missouri, in ’77, at 17 years old.
John Hansen:
And that was the open Mr. Missouri. That wasn’t the teenage.
Phil Williams:
That was the open, right, because you didn’t have a teenage in the state during that time. I don’t know if they ever had. Then I took … ’78, I won the Mr. Mid USA, now that’s Teenage Mr. Mid USA.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
That was in ’78. And ’79, it was the Teenage Mr. Coastal USA, where I beat Lee Haney. And then, three months later, I take fifth in the medium class of the Teenage Mr. America, and Haney wins the tall class in the overall.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
Which, yeah. And then, in 1980, as a teenager, I went back to Atlanta and won the Mr. Coastal USA as a teenager.
John Hansen:
Okay. Gotcha. Where was that at?
Phil Williams:
So I did, yeah, quite a few shows as a teenage … I’m sorry?
John Hansen:
Where was the Coastal USA? Was that Atlanta, Georgia?
Phil Williams:
Doc Neely used to put that on, out of Atlanta, Georgia.
John Hansen:
Okay. When you did the Teenage America-
Phil Williams:
Doc Neely put on some good shows.
John Hansen:
When you did the Teenage America, who were you up against, Phil?
Phil Williams:
Okay, guys you probably heard of. Frank Pantoja, who was Roy Ledermeier’s guy.
John Hansen:
From California, yeah.
Phil Williams:
Won the class. Doug Brignole.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Came in second.
John Hansen:
He’s still around, yeah.
Phil Williams:
There’s a guy named Andy Lopedote that came out of New York.
John Hansen:
Yeah, huge guy. Real big guy.
Phil Williams:
Now, I might have them twisted. I think maybe … I might say that Andy may have taken second, Doug third, and a guy named Joe Fulco, he’d already won the Teenage Mr. USA, took forth. And I came in fifth.
John Hansen:
Right. Okay.
Phil Williams:
So shit, man, that was some stiff competition for a teenage show.
John Hansen:
Yeah, for sure.
Phil Williams:
The best teenagers I’ve ever seen. I haven’t seen anything like that since. And I tell people, to this day, I’ve never seen teenagers like that.
John Hansen:
Yeah, I know. I remember all those guys. I remember that contest. I remember seeing the results of that contest in the magazines.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, that was crazy.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I left there butthurt of course, because I’d already beat Haney. But the same time, I looked at him, and I said, “Shit, this is crazy.”
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
It was the craziest thing I’ve ever seen.
John Hansen:
Lee Haney won the overall that night.
Phil Williams:
It was a good show. Yeah, yeah.
John Hansen:
And he looked way better-
Phil Williams:
He won the overall.
John Hansen:
He looked way better than when you beat him a few months before, right?
Phil Williams:
Well, I would say it was four months earlier. I don’t know how much you can change in four months, but he looked better, yeah.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah, you can tell-
Phil Williams:
It was funny, the first time I met Lee, at the Teenage Coastal USA, I thought he was in the open class. Because the guy, he didn’t look like a teenager. He looked exactly as he does now. And the funny thing is, if you look at him now, and look at him back then, he hasn’t aged.
John Hansen:
Wow. That’s crazy. Yeah, he looked like a man-
Phil Williams:
It doesn’t make sense does it? But you know what I said. He looks the same as he did then.
John Hansen:
Yeah, he looked like a man when he was a teenager. I remember that. His face looked like a man.
Phil Williams:
Exactly. And he still looks the same.
John Hansen:
Yeah, that’s crazy.
Phil Williams:
He still looks the same. Yeah. That is crazy.
John Hansen:
What did his physique look like back then? Could you tell that this guy was going to be a Mr. Olympia winner?
Phil Williams:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. You could. You would never think eight time Mr. Olympia, of course. But yeah, you could tell. He had all the potential. Yeah. It was … sure, sure. Very balanced. Very well built.
John Hansen:
Yeah. He was like-
Phil Williams:
He had the type of muscle maturity that you don’t see on a teenager.
John Hansen:
Yeah, exactly. Wasn’t he like-
Phil Williams:
You understand. So yeah.
John Hansen:
He weighed like 218 pounds or something, right? Wasn’t he pretty big?
Phil Williams:
Yeah, I think he was … I think he said he weighed 210. 210?
John Hansen:
210. Okay.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, like 210.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Which he won the nationals, let’s see. We’re going from ’79 to ’82, he was 230 at the nationals. So yeah, that’s about right.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Phil Williams:
That’s about right.
John Hansen:
What did George teach you about training, Phil? I know he sort of took you under his wing, right?
Phil Williams:
Yeah, he did. This is the funny thing about George. This is going to be a crazy story. I overtrain very easily, first of all. So the routine that George had me on, and it was the same one he had Tony Pearson on, was to do 10 sets of squats, three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
10 sets of squats. That’s 30 sets of squats a week. And then, I can’t remember how the back went, but it was chest, back, shoulders, and then arms between that, right?
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
When Mentzer came, Mentzer talked about overtraining. I started listening right away, because I was so overtrained, but George … and I said, “Well, George has me doing this.” I was sitting with Mike. And Mike said, “Well you can’t … nobody can train like that.” And I just looked at him. I said, “Really? Nothing’s wrong with me.” He said, “No, you need to do this, this, this.” And the routine Mike put me on, I started following.
Phil Williams:
I said, “Oh, this is going to piss George off.” George turns around and says, to everyone at the seminar, “Mike Mentzer is the brightest guy I’ve ever met, you need to listen to this.”
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
That’s just how George talked. He said, “This is the most intelligent man in bodybuilding.”
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
So I listened to Mike after that. And George really never said a thing.
John Hansen:
Hmm. Okay.
Phil Williams:
George left it alone.
John Hansen:
Yeah. So Mentzer gave a-
Phil Williams:
He really liked Mike. He liked Mike a whole lot. He talked about Mike all the time. At that time, I think Mike Mentzer … actually, he’s the only guy who’s come to George’s gym to do a seminar. No one else did. Only Mike.
John Hansen:
Okay. Plus those guys-
Phil Williams:
He had a lot of respect for Mike, for whatever reason.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil’s training routine, advice and moving to California
Phil Williams:
But George would have you overtraining. It was six day on, one off.
John Hansen:
Right. So what did Mentzer recommend? Four days a week total?
Phil Williams:
Usually each body part about once a week.
John Hansen:
Yeah. A lot like the guys are training today.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Yeah. I still use that routine. But I train each body part, let’s say every 10 or sometimes it could spill over to 11 days.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And that’s it. And even then, recovery can be, ah, you know?
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Recovery can be hard sometimes, depending on what you’re going through, all the stress levels outside of the gym, just whatever’s happened in your life.
John Hansen:
Yeah. It seems like recovery is individual. Because I know some people train … or they recover faster than others.
Phil Williams:
Oh, absolutely. Sure.
John Hansen:
It seems like it’s all individual. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
It’s very individual. The thing is that most guys realize that it’s good to have a training partner, but two guys may not work well together for that reason. You know what I’m saying? One guy might make … I’ve trained with guys in the past, and it’s hard to have a good training partner, that you’re equal with. Equal recovery, equal strength, equal … you know what I’m saying where you guys can-
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Really flow together.
John Hansen:
Exactly. I know Mike believes training to failure. Did you do that also with your training, when you started learning from him?
Phil Williams:
I tried to, yes. As much as I could, to positive failure. And then, if you had someone there to assist you, with forced reps. Or I could use the rest pause every once in a while. Right. Wait 10, 15 seconds, and then do as many reps as I could again.
John Hansen:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. For those that don’t know what a rest pause is, that’s where you put the weight down, wait a few seconds, and then you do another rep, right?
Phil Williams:
Catch your breath and do as many as you … yes, exactly. Do as many as you can. If you get an additional two or three reps, that’s great.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And count that as one set, not two sets, of course. Yeah.
John Hansen:
Right. Right. So you just keep going and going and going until the muscle completely fails.
Phil Williams:
Exactly. What I mean by positive failure, I guess everybody knows. It means you just don’t … I see most guys, they get to a number, and let’s say that number is eight, and they automatically, “Oh, that discomfort.” They use a number, where it’s discomfort, and that’s it.
John Hansen:
Yeah, right.
Phil Williams:
My, you just started that set. Why did you stop?
John Hansen:
Right, exactly. Because I got a chance to train with you, Phil, when I was in California. And I know you don’t go super heavy. There’s other ways of training the muscle to failure, instead of going … because when people think of Mentzer, they think super heavy weight, to train-
Phil Williams:
Right. Mentzer was strong.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Mike was very strong.
John Hansen:
Very strong.
Phil Williams:
He had the structure. I’m not very strong. I’ve got a medium frame. I’ve got medium to light bone structure. I’ve got long arms, I’ve got long legs. I’m not built for power. So what I usually did, what I found out that worked best, because I had a slower velocity, and that time under tension increased the intensity of the exercise. So I would do it as slow as humanly possible. I could be under the leg press for three minutes. But I’m pushing slow. Every rep is slow. Time under tension is intensity.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
At the end of the day, it’s intensity that’s going to make the difference. And we take that intensity and that slow velocity to failure, man, that burns. That’s a whole lot of discomfort.
John Hansen:
Yeah, I noticed when I trained with you, you-
Phil Williams:
And I try to get people to do that … yeah, go ahead.
John Hansen:
When I was training with you, I noticed you had perfect form. You were doing everything perfect, very slow tempo, like you said.
Phil Williams:
Sure. Well, I’m a form fanatic. I’ve always been a form fanatic. I knew I was going to be strong, so I’m going to do it as perfectly as possible. Form the exercise as perfectly as possible. And that’s what I do.
John Hansen:
When you started your career, and you were a thinner body builder, in the beginning, obviously, when you were a teenager, the way to build size was that kind of training, right? That’s the routine that builds your size.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, that worked for me. That worked very well for me. And to this day, I don’t have any real injuries, let’s put it that way. There’s nothing I can’t do. I’ve never had any shoulder issues. I’ve never had any back issues, knee problems, et cetera, et cetera.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
So, yeah. Yeah.
John Hansen:
That’s interesting, because you were a big bodybuilder when you got to the national level, when you were winning the nationals.
Phil Williams:
Right, right. Well, I grew very easily. Maybe it’s the type of training or the intensity, but I grew without having to ever use heavy weights to do so. Like I tell people, I’ve never picked up a pair a hundred pound dumbbells except to move them out of the way.
John Hansen:
Right. Really? I-
Phil Williams:
Right. I’ve never had to squat 700 pounds, 600 pounds. I’ve never had to do that. I never could do that. I’ve got small hips and a small waist.
John Hansen:
Right, right.
Phil Williams:
That’s not going to happen. That kind of power is not there. But all my movements are just extremely fluid. And like I said, with slow velocity and high intensity, to failure. That did it.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What do you think of when you see Ronnie Coleman now, with all the injuries he’s had?
Phil Williams:
I feel terrible. I feel bad for him. But he said he doesn’t feel sorry for himself, does he? Because I’ve heard him say, “Oh, I’d do it again. If I had the chance to do it, I would do it again.” For eight Mr. Olympias, he said, “I’d do it again.” So, hey, that’s the price you pay.
John Hansen:
Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Phil Williams:
He doesn’t feel sorry for himself, so I’m not going to feel sorry for him.
John Hansen:
Right. Right.
Phil Williams:
Incredible physique. And I watched some of the footage back then, when he was doing that stuff, and I’m thinking, “Man.” But I would’ve never imagined he’d be going through what he’s going through now.
John Hansen:
Me neither. Me neither. I know you put your body through stuff, but man, I didn’t think … I don’t know if it’s the surgeries he’s had that’s really messed up his back that bad, but man, he’s-
Phil Williams:
I couldn’t count the surgeries. Yeah, he’s had, I’m going to say five surgeries.
John Hansen:
Yeah, I think more than that. I think it’s been like eight or something on his back.
Phil Williams:
He may not be finished. Yeah, he may not be finished. Who knows?
John Hansen:
I know. I know. Yeah. It’s terrible. Then when you look at someone like you, or Lee Labrada, or Lee Haney, You guys were old school guys, too. You were around before he was, and you’re still training good, and you’re still healthy.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s … yeah. It’s a type of training style, I guess it’s going to make a difference. I see footage now of guys doing bent over rows, but we’re talking about what looks like 405, and I’m thinking, “How is that possible?”
John Hansen:
Right, right. I know.
Phil Williams:
But you see it. Or T-bar rows, with the 45s all the way to the end of the bar. And I’m thinking, “Man.” And it’s funny. Years ago, I had a guy, I can’t remember who I was training with. It might’ve been Brian Buchanan. We were in Germany, training, and he put the 45s on there, on the T-bar. And I said, “No.” I said, “Take those off.” And he looked at me, he goes, “What do you mean?” I said, “Let’s use 25s, that way we get a fuller range of motion.” Right?
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Having shorter plates, or smaller plates, you get a fuller range of motion. So you get that extra three inches, where you can squeeze your back in a contracted position. Right?
John Hansen:
Right, right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
Just little things like that that make a big difference in the end. If I did T-bar rows, we had one at Gold’s gym they just carried off, about four months ago. It was a perfect piece of equipment. There was nothing wrong with it. For some reason, we come in the next day and they changed the equipment. They bring in some new equipment, take out them old, and they take it. They don’t replace it, they just take it. No idea why.
Phil Williams:
And I had my wife using it. My wife’s my training partner. We used to love that thing. But these old exercises, the basic compound exercises, to me, is what works. Of course, that’s the exercise of today, I’ve never seen done before. I don’t know who created them or where they come from, and I don’t know. I doubt the effectiveness of them. And I’m sure you see that, too.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. I see some lines of equipment. I’m like, “The guys who developed this, they don’t work out.” There’s no way they would work out. Because it just doesn’t work.
Phil Williams:
No. I said that years ago. Most of the guys that design equipment aren’t bodybuilders. They don’t work out.
John Hansen:
No. No. You could tell, because you can’t use it. If you try to do an exercise … like there’s a press behind the neck, where you can’t do the presses behind the neck because the things are too close to the pad, the stance where you take the weight off. It’s too close to the pad, so when you try to do it, you can’t do it. There’s no room on there. You know?
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Well, that’s the one thing about George’s equipment he had back then. Like I said, it was some of the best I’d ever … even to this day, I would select it over anything I’ve seen since.
John Hansen:
Wow. Amazing. Why did you go to California then, Phil? And start training over at Gold’s?
Phil Williams:
Oh, the first time I went out there was in ’78. When Gold’s was on Second Street.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
I stayed there for a couple of weeks. I knew Ron Tuefel.
John Hansen:
But you were a teenager back then.
Phil Williams:
I was out there with him a little bit. I knew Mike, of course. So I hung out there for a couple of weeks. And got out there … the second time I went out there … first time I actually moved out there was in ’81.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
And by then, they’d moved on to Hampton, where they are now.
John Hansen:
Okay. So the first time was in Santa Monica, right? On Second Street?
Meeting and Training with the most impressive bodybuilders
Phil Williams:
Yes. Santa Monica. Second Street. It was next to … I’ll never forget, the Pussycat Theatre or something.
John Hansen:
How was that? How was that to you? I never been to that one.
Phil Williams:
It was small. It was …
John Hansen:
Was it? Okay.
Phil Williams:
I don’t know, maybe 5,000 square foot.
John Hansen:
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. It was nothing, really. But it was a crazy place. It was … Samir was there. I’d met Samir in ’77, when he would guest pose for George. So I knew a lot … by that time, I’d already known some of these guys. And then, when I went out there in ’81, of course that’s when, man, that’s when it was the place.
It was amazing. But kids would come from all over the world, and I’d literally mean all over the world, not within the country, we’re talking about from all over the world and train there. I met kids from Germany, from Sweden, from Italy. And these kids were all my age, all about the same age, 20, 21 years old. They all come out there to be bodybuilders.
I’m thinking, “This is one of the craziest places I’ve ever seen.” Right. But then I met Chris Dickerson, and got to know everybody that was there during that particular time. And there was a number of people there.
John Hansen:
So the first time you went out there, when it was in Santa Monica, you just went out there for a couple of weeks, but this time you moved out to California.
Phil Williams:
Just for a couple weeks. It was like a vacation. Yeah.
John Hansen:
Yeah. So in ’80-
Phil Williams:
And then I made my plans to come back as soon as I could put it together.
John Hansen:
You were living out there in ’81, so tell me some of the guys you saw back then, because that had to be a great time. You probably saw Tom Platz. Right? And Samir, like you said.
Phil Williams:
I saw Tom, Samir, I met Mike Christian there. He’d just come down from Oregon. I believe it was Oregon.
John Hansen:
Yep, yep.
Phil Williams:
My, there was Andreas Cahling. I don’t know if said Chris Dickerson, Robby Robinson. Oh man. Who else was there? The Barbarian Brothers, of course.
John Hansen:
Yeah. What were they like?
Phil Williams:
Ah, of course it was a show every time they were in the gym, right?
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
It was like Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey. Right?
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
But the craziest thing is, it was one room. You know how you have the three big rooms now? You had the first room. That was the gym. So everybody’s literally in the same room. And these guys use … I trained about 7:00 in the morning, and you come about that time, you’d see guys either coming in or just leaving.
We were all in there about the same time. Mike and Ray … Ray Mentzer was there. I trained with Ray for a while. Ali Malla, I used to work out with, he was a training partner for a while.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Okay.
Phil Williams:
Wow. Man. Everyone was there. If you had a name at that time, you probably would’ve been there, in and out of there.
John Hansen:
How was Ray Mentzer? I heard he was super strong.
Phil Williams:
He was. And I trained with him, that’s what I’m saying. We weren’t a good fit. He was incredibly strong.
John Hansen:
How about Casey Viator? Did you ever see him?
Phil Williams:
Casey-
Phil Williams:
Incredibly strong.
John Hansen:
How about Casey Viator? Did you ever see him?
Phil Williams:
Casey trained very heavy. Yeah, Casey was there.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
I met Casey in ’79 and got to know him, and I kept in touch with him. Yeah, he was very strong and this guy trained extremely heavy. He did barbell curls with two and a quarter. Olympic barbell with two 45’s on each side.
John Hansen:
Right. Wow.
Phil Williams:
Of course, his form wasn’t the best.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
But I mean, he was very strong.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Amazing.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Another guy I got to know out there, who we thought would … Who was soon to be a pro is Gunnar Rosbo. He was a good friend of mine out there.
John Hansen:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
…out there.
John Hansen:
Really?
Phil Williams:
Yeah.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, I got to know Gunnar real well. So it was quite a number of guys, man. It was a good time.
John Hansen:
So Gunnar was living in California for a while, huh?
Phil Williams:
He lived with Ed Connors for short time.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
Ed Connors had a house that was about, oh, right off the Boardwalk.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And I used to go there and knock on the door and Gunnar would come out. And he and I hang out. I’d pick him… I had a little car back then, a little Maverick-
John Hansen:
Yeah?
Phil Williams:
… and I used to drive him around and get what he needed. So, we became real good friends. He and I hung out together quite a bit.
John Hansen:
Hmm. Okay, cool. How about Tom Platz…
Phil Williams:
So yeah-
John Hansen:
Did you ever get to see Tom do his legendary squatting routines?
Phil Williams:
Yes. Yes. It was breathtaking. Unbelievable to watch this guy go through a leg workout.
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean I’ve seen footage on YouTube. You can find some old footage of him doing squats and it was crazy.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And I’ve seen him probably do… take 315 and knock out 50 reps.
John Hansen:
Geez. Yeah, I was going to ask you-
Phil Williams:
He was like a piston. Yeah.
John Hansen:
I was going to ask if he was going real heavy, or if he was doing a more moderate weight with a lot of reps.
Phil Williams:
Well, he would go both. He’d go as heavy as 505 for 15-20 reps.
John Hansen:
Damn. Really?
Phil Williams:
Imagine… Yeah. 505 for 20 reps.
John Hansen:
Hmm.
Phil Williams:
And he just went crazy.
John Hansen:
And when he squated, he went all the way down because we’ve both seen Tom Platz doing squats.
Phil Williams:
He went all the way down. Well, his hamstrings hit his calves and that… His hamstrings and his calves were huge. So…
John Hansen:
Right. Right.
Phil Williams:
It’s kind of like they bounced off each other. Right?
John Hansen:
Right, right.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. But I mean really if you look at him anatomically, he was perfectly designed for squatting. He had the right waist width-
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
… and his thighs were as long as they were wide. If that makes sense.
John Hansen:
Right. Right, right.
Phil Williams:
So yeah, it was just like a piston firing.
John Hansen:
Yeah, and that’s exactly what he looked like…
Phil Williams:
Yeah. His intensity was through the charts.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I haven’t seen anything like that.
John Hansen:
Yeah. You know I-
Phil Williams:
I don’t think anybody trains like that to this day.
John Hansen:
I hate all these cell phones and everything, but I kind of wished people would have had cell phones back then because there would have been a lot more footage of him doing those incredible squat routines. You see online and stuff, he’s at this one seminar, I think the Joe Weider Camp and there’s footage of him from there doing leg routines-
Phil Williams:
Right.
John Hansen:
… but there’s not a lot of stuff like from ’81. I’d love to see from ’81 when he was at his peak at that Olympia; him just doing those incredible squatting routines.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, yeah. No, we didn’t have… I mean, the only people that had cameras back then were photographers. Right?
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I get that from people all the time. People said, “Well, why don’t you have a lot of pictures?” And I’m thinking, “Back then, if I would’ve been in the gym training and you would have come up to me with a camera and I didn’t know who you were, I would have said, ‘You get that out of here.'” Right?
John Hansen:
Right, right.
Phil Williams:
“I’m not ready to be photographed. I don’t want any pictures.”
John Hansen:
Yeah, right, right.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. If you’re not ready, you’re not thinking about that. That’s the last thing you want is someone to start taking pictures of you. But nowadays, I mean, that’s the thing.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
Everything’s covered.
John Hansen:
Yeah. I think the same thing when…
Phil Williams:
It’s a whole different time.
John Hansen:
When I was in my 20s or 30s and I was real bulked up and having really incredible workouts, I wish I would’ve taken video of that or pictures of that.
Phil Williams:
Sure.
John Hansen:
But you’re right. I mean, nobody took cameras in the gym back then.
Phil Williams:
No.
John Hansen:
I mean, I would take a camera and if I was getting ready for a show or something and I was taking pictures every month or something like that. But other than that, you don’t take a camera in the gym and train, and you never had a video camera. Nobody ever did that.
Phil Williams:
Of course. Nobody had one unless you were a filmmaker. But yeah-
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
So I mean, yeah, that’s funny because you look back and I’m thinking of all the pictures I could have had-
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
… but I’m lucky. I’m lucky to find the ones that I’ve been able to find.
John Hansen:
Right, exactly. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So…
John Hansen:
I just interviewed Rick Valente not too long ago, and he was telling me about Gold’s back then. He said it was one room, like you said. So he said everybody-
Phil Williams:
Yeah.
John Hansen:
… was in this one room, and he said the intensity was crazy.
Phil Williams:
No, it was. Hey, Rick got me my first job in Venice.
John Hansen:
Oh yeah? No kidding.
Phil Williams:
At a parking lot, there’s a … It was a place called Charmer’s Market and it was like a little winery restaurant-
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
…and he got me my first job parking… I mean not parking cars, but watching cars.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
And that was in Santa Monica. A block off… On Pacific Avenue.
John Hansen:
Okay. How was life in California back then Phil? Because I know it’s got to be so much different then.
Phil Williams:
Oh, it was a different time.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Oh so much different. I mean just a different time. I lived one block West of Goshen. There’s little… some apartments that are on a corner.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And it’s across the street from the bus depot, right across the street from the parking lot of course; caddy corner sort of.
John Hansen:
Okay, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And I lived there and I think we paid $350 a month and it was four guys living there of course, but I mean it was a good time, man. It was a whole different… I tell my wife all the time, I said, “Well this used to be this way and that used to be that way. And you’d come in and Pete Grymkowski would be at the counter.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And then… Or Samir would be at the counter talking to Serge Nubret. You could come in at any anytime and see that.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
You might see anybody. Right?
John Hansen:
Yep, yep.
Phil Williams:
So it was a whole different world. I mean, it was actually a bodybuilding gym.
John Hansen:
Right, right. That’s what-
Phil Williams:
And well-
John Hansen:
That’s what Rich said too. He said you don’t really see too many bodybuilders there anymore. It’s just personal trainers, but back then it was all bodybuilders.
Phil Williams:
Oh yeah, yeah. You got more personal trainers there then Ringling Brothers has clowns.
John Hansen:
Right. Exactly.
Phil Williams:
I mean that sincerely. Yeah, it’s crazy.
John Hansen:
Yeah, I know.
Phil Williams:
But you’d come in and it was a kind of a place to hang out. You could go there in the evening and there’d be guys outside talking in the parking lot.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
I mean, you could see bodybuilders all the time just bodybuilding.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And you see the photographers come in and they’d say the photo shoots or pictures you saw in Muscle Builder or Flex-
John Hansen:
Yep.
Phil Williams:
You’d see photo shoots. I mean, you’re around the guys all the time and everybody was cool. It was just a different time I guess.
John Hansen:
Yeah. How was Samir back then? I mean, because he was at his peak at around that time also.
Phil Williams:
Oh yes, Samir. That was in ’82, Samir, well Samir took fifth in the Olympia, the ’82 Olympia, I want to say. Right?
John Hansen:
Fourth. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And I saw Samir compete in Sweden. He took second to Makkawy.
John Hansen:
Yep, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And that was in ’82. Let’s see, ’83 he won the Olympia. Now I lived with Samir in ’80 to late ’81-
John Hansen:
All right.
Phil Williams:
… when I first came out to California. He put me up in his apartment for about six weeks until I was able to find a place and Rick Valente got me my first job.
John Hansen:
Hmm, okay.
Phil Williams:
So we’re all helping each other, man.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
It was a good time.
John Hansen:
Yeah, exactly.
Phil Williams:
Yes, Samir… Like I said, Samir helped me out. Ray Mentzer took me around. Mike used to take me to coffee at the Rose Cafe to hang out with him.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.
Phil Williams:
And I knew… It was amazing because I knew all these guys at an early age.
John Hansen:
Yeah, yeah. Amazing.
Phil Williams:
So I was able to learn as much as I could from all of them.
John Hansen:
Yeah. What was Samir’s training like? Did he go pretty heavy?
Phil Williams:
He trained moderately heavy. I wouldn’t say real heavy; moderately heavy.
John Hansen:
Okay, okay.
Phil Williams:
I trained with Samir a bit. I ended up training with Ali Malla. Samir had a workout partner and so I ended up training with Ali Malla more who was a lot stronger than I was, also. He had a wider hip base. I used to do legs with Ali and I used to wonder, I’m thinking, “But we’re the same height and almost the same weight. How come he can squat much more?”. Well, he had a wider hip base, right? And shorter limbs, shorter legs.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
So I started learning all of this. It was funny, I was squatting with Ali. I’ll tell you a story, and we were in World Gym-
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
… and Ali knocked out 15 easy reps with 315. I get into there and I’m hitting eight, 10, struggling to get 12.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Franco Colombu comes up to me and goes, “Come here.” He goes, “Don’t try to do what he’s doing. Do what you can do.” He said, “Look at this,” and he went to Ali and he put his hands and showed me how wide his hips were. Right?
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
Then he looked at mine. He goes, “See how small you are here?”. He goes, “You can’t be… You’re not going to be as strong as he is.”
John Hansen:
Wow. That’s cool.
Phil Williams:
And it just finally had dawned on me. That’s when I started to realize, “Oh, okay. Well all right, that makes sense.”
John Hansen:
Yeah, yeah.
Phil Williams:
And after I learned… Like I said, I learned a little bit from all of these guys.
John Hansen:
Right. So you said Worlds Gym. You went over to Worlds Gym also?
Phil Williams:
I’d go over there, and at one time… Remember when it was on… I’m going to say it was on Main Street. It was on the second floor.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Okay. Samir took me up there in ’81 and he introduced me to Joe Gold and Samir said, “Hey Joey, I want you to meet Phil Williams. This is going to be your next champion.” And Joe looked at me, shook my hand. He said, “Well all champions train free, so-“
John Hansen:
Whoa!
Phil Williams:
… whenever you want to come, come on over. And I’m like, “Oh shit.”
John Hansen:
No shit.
Phil Williams:
“I’m going to…”
John Hansen:
That’s awesome.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. So, I started training there and I’d go over to Gold’s Gym. I’d go to one in the morning and the other in the afternoon or the next day, or just whatever I was placed in the body parts I was doing.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Right.
Phil Williams:
And the same thing with Pete Grymkowski. Samir introduced me to Pete and Pete said, “Oh well, if you’re a friend of Samir’s, you’re a friend man. You can train for nothing.” And I trained free.
John Hansen:
Damn. Wow. Amazing.
Phil Williams:
Now, I’m paying out of the ass to train at Gold’s Gym.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
Just to show you how things work. Right?
John Hansen:
Right. Things have changed. How was Joe Gold?
Phil Williams:
Joe was real cool; one of the coolest guys I’ve ever met. Honestly, one of the coolest people I’ve ever met. He is kind of like George in a way. I mean, these are old guys; old school guys, man.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
They couldn’t be around today. They couldn’t handle it today. I couldn’t imagine George being on the planet today with what’s going on? He’d kill people, or he’d kill himself. They were the old type mid-50s guys. I mean 40s, 50s, 60s guys.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
They were hard guys. They were nice guys, but they were blunt , If they didn’t like you, they’d let you know it right away. That’s the type of guys they were.
John Hansen:
Right, right.
Phil Williams:
And if they did like you, they’d do anything for you.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
John Hansen:
And then Worlds had that outdoor-
Phil Williams:
I’m sorry.
John Hansen:
Worlds Gym had that outdoor area too right?
Phil Williams:
Yes it did. Yes it did. Right. Correct.
John Hansen:
That had to be cool to train out there.
Phil Williams:
Oh that was. And then later on when Joe moved it to I want to say Pacific Avenue on the corner-
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
… where it was, there’s a gymnastics center there now.
John Hansen:
Yeah. I’ve seen that.
Phil Williams:
That was even nicer. I don’t know if you know the location I’m speaking of.
John Hansen:
Yeah I do. I passed by it when I was up there about a month ago.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was a great gym.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
So you could walk from one to the other depending on if I’m going to do chest, I might want to do chest at Gold’s. I might want to do a back the next day at World Gym, so I had the freedom to just walk between the two.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.
Phil Williams:
That was a good time man. I had the time of my life.
John Hansen:
Did you see Franco training out there? Because in ’81 that’s when he won the Olympia, and I heard he used to train at Worlds all the time which-
Phil Williams:
I saw him at end.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
Right at the end I saw him.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
I saw him training a little bit. I saw him actually training Sylvester Stallone there a few times.
John Hansen:
Oh really? No kidding. Wow that’s crazy.
Phil Williams:
The World Gym. The World Gym.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Wow.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, the were exclusively at Worlds.
John Hansen:
Yeah. How did Franco look?
Phil Williams:
I mean, I have some memories. Yeah. There’s some memories there that man I need to sit and start thinking about it. They just come up, you know?
John Hansen:
Yeah, sure, sure. How did Franco look?
Phil Williams:
Franco back then was on his… He was not very large. After that he-
John Hansen:
Yeah?
Phil Williams:
… Yeah. Yeah. He would take… They’d come down after a show back then. They used to grow to a show and afterwards they’d come back down.
John Hansen:
Yeah, yeah.
Phil Williams:
So he was… Yes. Actually his size wasn’t… And he wore baggy clothes of course, but he wasn’t that big and not that impressive at that time.
John Hansen:
Did you see him when he was getting ready for the Olympia in ’81?
Phil Williams:
No I-
John Hansen:
I guess he used to train with this… Okay. Because I heard he was still just-
Phil Williams:
…
John Hansen:
… training with shorts on and no shirt on and stuff.
Phil Williams:
Now, he may have. Yeah, that was before I got out there.
John Hansen:
Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Phil Williams:
I got up there towards the end of ’81.
John Hansen:
Oh, okay.
Phil Williams:
It would’ve been like late November, December, which Olympia would’ve been over.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah. How did Stallone look?
Phil Williams:
Not bad. I mean, he looked pretty good. He was muscular. That was the year I think he did one…
John Hansen:
Yeah, that’s when he was training for-
Phil Williams:
… one of the Rocky films; he came out shredded.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
He kind of looked like Bruce Lee did in ’73, sort of.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
You remember..Enter the Dragon. Extremely muscular. Well, he looked as good as that.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Did you ever see Arnold train in there?
Phil Williams:
He was in good condition. I saw Arnold train at World Gym. I used to see him train here and there.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
I mean, he’d come in and if you got in there early enough you’d see him sometimes. You’d catch him like here and there. Just like I see him now. I used to catch him… We used to see him in the mornings. Recently, up until before he had his heart operation, we’d see him at 7:30 8 in the morning as we’d be leaving. Then we started going earlier and earlier to beat the crowd, so I haven’t seen him since.
John Hansen:
Yeah, when I was out there, he was training one day at three o’clock in the afternoon.
Phil Williams:
Oh, okay. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. By that time I’m in and out of there.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I try to get in and out as quickly as possible-
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
… because by eight o’clock of course you’re standing in line to use the equipment.
John Hansen:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Phil Williams:
And so yeah, I try to avoid that altogether.
John Hansen:
How was Mike Mentzer? Because his last show was 1980, but he was still pretty thick right, when you saw him?
Phil Williams:
He stayed pretty thick up until about ’82 and then Mike went through a mental health issue.
John Hansen:
Hmm, okay.
Phil Williams:
I don’t know if you remember hearing the crazy stories.
John Hansen:
Sure, sure. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I was around Ray at the time and Ray never spoke of it much, and I never… Ray was the type of guy too that you wouldn’t want to make angry. Let’s put it that way. Right?
John Hansen:
Yeah, that’s what I heard about him. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I was in a… I’ll tell you a funny story about Ray now that I’m thinking about it. We went to Westwood.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
My first wife, Ray, myself… I think it was just the three of us and we went into a club and we all sat there. I think we were drinking wine and the guy said, “It’s ready to close.” Right?
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And so we started getting up and Ray just sits there. Ray says, “Well I’m going to finish this.” And the doorman come over to him and they knew who he was because it was a place that he recommended that we went. “Oh, Mr. Mentzer, we have to have you drink up sir,” and Ray just stood there and looked at him and said, “I’ll take my time.”
Phil Williams:
And so we’re getting out of there. And they’re to trying… They’re begging Ray to leave. More or less, just “Please. Mr Mentzer, we got to get you out of here.” And Ray’s in a moody. Well the funny story is he broke up with Rachel McLish soon before this, right? So he’s in a real bad mood-
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
… and so we finally get him out of the place. Talk him into it. “C’mon Ray. Let’s go buddy. Let’s just get out of here. These guys want to shut down.” We get on the street and we go to cross the street and he crosses; he jay walks.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And a police turn on a light. This is in Westwood of course. The streets are fairly busy. People are leaving the clubs and whatever. He turned the lights on him and he just looked at him and tells him, “What the fuck are you looking at,” and continues to walk on. They didn’t say a thing to him. I got to know Ray pretty well. Ray was… Boy, when he was going through that, he was… He was not the nicest guy you wanted to be around. It wasn’t like he was a bad person. He was just moody.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Extremely moody. And I guess him and Rachel McLish has been together for a while.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And when that ended, yeah, that didn’t go down well with him.
John Hansen:
Well, I would have been in a bad mood too if I would have broke up with Rachel McLish. I would have been moody for about a year.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Ray and I got to know each other until we went to Australia. We hung out together until he moved to Australia, and he moved to Australia in ’82 sometime.
Moving between the US and Sweden
John Hansen:
Okay. And when did you go to Sweden.
Phil Williams:
Yeah that was… I went to Sweden in ’82. I met my first… Well, I met my first wife working at Chalmer’s Market; that was a market that Rick Valente got me the job at.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
I was standing at the end of the parking lot and she came up asking me directions, and next thing you know we got to know each other a little bit. And one of my good friends I knew was dating his girlfriend and she was here from Sweden on holiday. They were on vacation. They’d come over to rent an apartment for the summer and that’s how we met anyway. And then when she went back, she wanted me to come with her and of course I talked to Andreas, Samir, and Mike about going over there, what it would be like to go over there, and they thought it’d be a good opportunity. And that’s the reason I actually went.
John Hansen:
Oh really? Okay.
Phil Williams:
Andreas Cahling, of course he’s from Sweden, so he knew the GM, he knew the city.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And they said, going over there would be a good opportunity for you, and it was. It was a great opportunity.
John Hansen:
Why was it so great?
Phil Williams:
It was the first time I started doing guest posings during seminars and things like that.
John Hansen:
Oh, okay. Okay.
Phil Williams:
Everything kind of fell into place.
John Hansen:
So bodybuilding was really popular in Sweden at the time?
Phil Williams:
Oh man. More popular over there than it was over here.
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
Bodybuilding was only popular in California, right?
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
You had two Swedish Grand Prixs. You had one in ’82. You had one in ’83.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
You had the Swedish Championships. You had the Nordic Championships. You had the European Championships that was there in ’83; that’s the first time I saw Benfatto. I’ll never forget that.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
And then you had the World Champion there, which I took second in in ’85. And then you had the Olympia there in ’87.
John Hansen:
Yep, yep.
Phil Williams:
This is a state… This is a country that’s probably smaller than the state of Illinois or just whatever. Right?
John Hansen:
Wow. Really? No kidding?
Phil Williams:
That’s a lot of bodybuilding activity.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
There were seminars all the time. There was always something going on. They had their own magazine of course. So yeah, it was good.
John Hansen:
Wow. So in the US at that time, you weren’t the National’s winner yet-
Phil Williams:
No, no.
John Hansen:
… so you weren’t getting seminars and you weren’t getting guest posings and stuff in the US?
Phil Williams:
No, I went to… What I did, I decided to compete in the ’83 Open European Championships that was held in Halmstad, Sweden.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
And the guy that eventually won the European Championships Krister Eriksson, I’d beat him.
John Hansen:
Yep. I remember him.
Phil Williams:
He was a heavyweight. I was a light heavyweight. I beat him in the overall. And so from there, that set it off.
John Hansen:
Okay. Hmm. Wow.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, that set it off completely. They thought I was a pro. They said, “Well, who’s the pro from America?” “Oh no, he’s an amateur.” Right?
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
So yeah, that I did real well.
John Hansen:
And how was your training over there?
Phil Williams:
Basically, I did the same thing over there that I did here. They had a World Class Gym, which Ulf Bengtsson started, I believe and the equipment was solid man. It’s some of the best gyms in Sweden that I’ve ever seen.
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
You could go into any town in Sweden and find a great two or three great gyms.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Even the small villages had a gym, so I mean it was a boom over there.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
If you went to Denmark, Norway, you went to Germany, some of the best gyms I’ve ever seen. This is in the early ’80s.
John Hansen:
Were you able to make your living just through bodybuilding then being out there?
Phil Williams:
I was. I was able to for a number of years. Yeah.
John Hansen:
Wow. That’s crazy.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Yeah. My wife was a student at the time and all I did was do seminars or guest posings here and there.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah. Because personal training really wasn’t-
Phil Williams:
…
John Hansen:
Personal training really wasn’t around yet, right? In the early ’80s?
Phil Williams:
It didn’t exist. It did not exist.
John Hansen:
It didn’t exist. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
No.
John Hansen:
Yep.
Phil Williams:
The first time I saw..The first person I saw do personal training was Chris Dickerson.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What year was that?
Phil Williams:
And that’s the first… I’m going to say ’80, probably the beginning of ’83 maybe-
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
… after he’d won the Olympia.
John Hansen:
Yeah. How did Chris look in the early ’80s Phil?
Phil Williams:
Oh Chris looked good. I mean he wasn’t big of course-
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
… but Chris had an incredible physique.
John Hansen:
Yeah?
Phil Williams:
I got to know Chris quite well actually before the ’84 USA. He kind of coached me a little bit, gave me some advice on posing. I stole his song; You are the One. What was it? It was a Lionel Richie song I stole.
John Hansen:
Lionel Richie, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Phil Williams:
I used it at the Nationals, yes. And he talked to me about posing this, that, display; physique display.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, we became quite close.
John Hansen:
Yeah, now that you mentioned that, I remember he was the commentator on ESPN when the Universe was on; the ’85 Universe.
Phil Williams:
Yes.
John Hansen:
And he came out to… Yeah, he goes, I worked with Phil on his posing.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Yeah. Chris was good.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
A good guy to know… Good guy to… Yeah, great guy.
John Hansen:
And that was an awesome routine you did that year at that ’85-
Phil Williams:
Yeah, yeah.
John Hansen:
… Universe and the Nationals. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Right. I extended that routine. I knew it was going to be the last time I would be getting to that show, so-
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
… that was funny how that worked back then. If you didn’t win that, in my mind, you didn’t deserve to get a pro card despite winning the USA and already winning at Nationals.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
So the fact that I didn’t win that show, I said, “Well, I’m not good enough to be a pro. I’m not going to be one now,” because you can’t go back.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And all the guys that tried to go back had failed, so that was a thing we didn’t want to do either.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
So that kind of yes, set me in limbo for a long time; for almost a three year period.
John Hansen:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. That’s amazing now when you think about it, when you think about all the pro cards they give out now. You were the overall winner at the USA and then you were the over-
John Hansen:
But now you were the overall winner at the USA, and then you were the overall winner at the nationals, and you still didn’t turn pro.
Phil Williams:
That’s four pro cards, right?
John Hansen:
Yeah, exactly.
Phil Williams:
Because if you think, the overall winner gets a pro card, and the class winner gets a pro card. So that’s four pro cards.
John Hansen:
Yeah. I see it.
Phil Williams:
Now I saw a list of shows and they were saying, “Pro qualifiers.” And I saw this on Instagram and I couldn’t even read. There were so many shows that I couldn’t count them.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Worldwide, that were pro qualifiers. And the only way in my time you could get to be a pro was to win the world championship. Remember the world championship used to be the show.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
The IFBB World Championships was it. If you won your… It didn’t matter what… That was it. That was the way to get a pro card. So yeah, it’s changed.
John Hansen:
Yeah. The routine you did, the posing routine you did in ’85, I remember, I don’t know if you remember this, but, what was his name? Daryl Stafford. He did that exact same routine you did when he competed in the ’86 Junior Nationals in Niagara falls, because I was in that show, and I remember when he came out. He did your exact same routine. So that’s how good your routine was, Phil, that people were actually imitating it.
Phil Williams:
No, I never knew that. I remember Daryl from years ago. I remember Daryl from the nationals.
John Hansen:
Yeah. He did-
Phil Williams:
I remember he won the Florida.
John Hansen:
He did the same song and he copied exactly the same clothes as you did.
Phil Williams:
That’s… I didn’t know that.
John Hansen:
Yeah. So when you came back to the… When did you come back to the US then, after Sweden?
Phil Williams:
I came back in early nineties. Then I went back again. I was going back and forth, undecisive about where I wanted to be. My last show was in ’96, and of course, I was… They said we were trying to gain size and, of course, to a point where I had figured at my biggest, I was 216. And that was in ’96 Iron Man. I was in fairly good condition, but you figure today, if you look at how much bodybuilding has progressed, 216 is probably one of the smaller guys in the 212 division.
John Hansen:
Yeah. Oh yeah. For sure. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
You have to be 212 and under, right? So that… I’ll take that back. So you’re not big enough… I’d have to stay at… In 92 I was 212, so I would be at the top of the 212 class.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
So it was a time when you were trying to figure out, “Well, get bigger, get bigger, get bigger.” Well, how much bigger can you get? I remember thinking that and thinking this, “This is not going down well.” And I posted some pictures on Instagram from the last show, when I was 216. And then there’s some I’m going to post when I was 212. But it’s just… That was just a tanker bodybuilder when you had… I remember seeing guys like J.P. Fuchs, there’s Flex Wheeler of course, Paul Dillett, and I’m thinking, “There’s nothing you can do with these guys. What are you going to do with a guy like this?”
John Hansen:
That was a whole new world, when those guys came on the scene.
Phil Williams:
The whole new world opened up, yeah.
John Hansen:
You’re right, the guys that are weighing 220, they go down to 212. Those are the biggest guys in the 212. They just diet down and lose that six, eight pounds and they just make that class limit.
Phil Williams:
Just to squeeze in, yeah. Just squeeze in it.
John Hansen:
So nowadays, you’ve got to be 240 and up to have any chance at all.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. I would think so. And then-
John Hansen:
So when you won the USA and the nationals and stuff, in ’84 and ’85, you were still living in Sweden, you were just coming back for the shows?
Phil Williams:
I was just coming back for the shows, yeah. The reason it’s easy over there is I’m able to fairly stretch free life over there, right?
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
In Sweden, all I had to do was eat, sleep and train, and then maybe an exhibition here, an exhibition there. I was under contract with a clothing company for a while, I was under contract with an equipment manufacturing company for a while.
John Hansen:
Really? Wow.
Phil Williams:
So yeah, that was the best I’ve ever had.
John Hansen:
Yeah. And how was the weather and everything out there?
Phil Williams:
Well, summers are short, winters can be extremely long, of course. So you might get snow as early as September and it might end in May.
John Hansen:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. So it depends on how far North. When I was in the Southern part of Sweden, I would say you had about eight months of what you could classify cold weather, or even winter.
John Hansen:
Yeah. But the people were nice and everything?
Phil Williams:
Oh, Sweden was great, man. If I could do that again, sure.
John Hansen:
Right. I heard it’s changed over there now. It’s not the same. It’s not the same as it used to be.
Phil Williams:
Of course. Oh, yeah. It’s a different world. It’s like everything else.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Not what it used to be. I’ve heard that from a lot of people over there that I keep in contact with. They say said it’s lots of change.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And not for the better, of course.
Bodybuilders that really impressed Phil
John Hansen:
Well, Phil, since we’re talking about these old stories, let me ask you, who was, if you could just think of a couple of guys that pop into your head, like someone that really blew you away, impressive-wise, maybe their physique or it’s something they did in the gym, just if you could think of something.
Phil Williams:
Wow. Let me think. Physique-wise, I remember the first time I saw a picture, I was with a British workout, I had a British workout partner, and this was in ’81. We’re in California and he pulls out a British magazine, pulls it out of a suitcase, and he shows me a picture of Brian Buchanan at 19.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And I’m thinking, I told him, “That’s not a real person.” He said, “No, he’s real.” I said, “No.” I said, “Someone took some scissors and cut his waist out.” And he goes, “No, no, no. He’s real.” And he showed me, he continued to keep showing pictures of him in various magazines he had. This guy of 19 was… Blew me away. I couldn’t even sleep that night. I was saying, “How in the hell can he look like that at 19?”
John Hansen:
Well, that’s crazy.
Phil Williams:
That was crazy. And then I saw Gunnar, right before we went to the world championships.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
And we were at Ed Connor’s, in the back of Ed Connor’s house, and he took off his shirt, and he had on some shorts. And he started posing. And at that point he was in great shape, unbelievable shape. He was very impressive. I saw Samir, I was in Samir’s apartment once, in the Marina Del Ray. And that was, that had to be before one of the Olympias. And he was just… His lines… His separation was so deep, you could take a coin and you could roll it down the lines, separation in this thigh because it was that deep. Just crazy. Crazy conditioning. His biceps were split so deep you could put your finger between the split.
John Hansen:
Wow. Unbelievable.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. And his intercostal, serratus, everything… his triceps and his chest were just crazy..
John Hansen:
Was that ’82 or ’83?
Phil Williams:
I’m sorry.
John Hansen:
When you saw Samir, was that ’82 or ’83?
Phil Williams:
It was probably ’82 or 3. I was going to say… Maybe 82 or 3. It had to be. And it was crazy. Actually, I’m going to say it was 82 because I was still in California. When he won the ’83 Olympia, I was living in Sweden.
John Hansen:
Okay. That was the year. He came a little bit lighter, but he was super shredded.
Phil Williams:
Super shredded.
John Hansen:
What year was that, when you saw a Gunnar? Was that ’81 or ’82?
Phil Williams:
That was in ’82. He was going to the world championships. He took second to Haney that year. And that was-
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. Now I’m thinking, “God, if Haney beat him, he must’ve really improved.”
John Hansen:
Yeah, right?
Phil Williams:
Gunnar was a funny guy, I’ll tell you a funny Gunnar Rosbo story.
John Hansen:
Okay.
Phil Williams:
We’re coming out of a nightclub in Norway, this is very true story. And it’s squeezing outside, there’s snow everywhere. People were taking the bus there, public transportation. There was a group of people waiting for the bus. Gunnar said, he tapped me on the shoulder. He said, “Watch this.” He had a cigarette in his hand, finished smoking the cigarette. He ran full speed toward the crowd of people and knocked everybody down like bowling pins. And he laughed his ass out after he did it. He fell and laughed. I laughed so hard.
John Hansen:
That’s hilarious.
Phil Williams:
I kid you not.
John Hansen:
How big was he, like 250?
Phil Williams:
There’s stories I think back, there’ll be some that I’ll think about after we finish the podcast of course, but that was just crazy.
John Hansen:
Yeah, it had to be cool, going out to-
Phil Williams:
He’s the funniest guy I’ve ever met.
John Hansen:
It had to be cool, going out to the clubs and stuff with those guys. It’s one thing working out with them, but then going out to the nightclubs and everything back in the 80s
Phil Williams:
Oh yeah. You get the crazy looks, people have never seen that before of course. Even back then. They see it more now of course, but back then, no, they didn’t see people like that. Whenever you go anywhere, in a group of guys we’d go together, they’d be just, people were just, “Oh my God.” They’d be in shock.
John Hansen:
Yeah, exactly. How about training wise? Something you saw somebody in the gym do that was, that really stands out, that you remember?
Phil Williams:
Tom Platz would be the one, as far as squatting. Squats are the hardest exercise, they take the most endurance. So it would have to be Tom and under the squat rack.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I’ve never seen anything like that before. That-
John Hansen:
Isn’t that amazing that that was almost 40 years ago and people still say Tom was still the hardest trainer ever?
Phil Williams:
A lot of people, yeah. Lee Priest did a thing on YouTube the other day, he was talking about the hardest trainer, and he mentioned Tom Platz.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Me and my wife were watching this the other day, and I said, “Yeah, you should have seen him.” Because I agreed with him right away. I said, “Oh, I never seen anything like it.” Nothing like it.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
I think guys, if you look at Ray Mentzer, from what I’ve seen, guys like Ray, guys like Casey, I saw Bertil Fox train, the craziest thing I’ve ever seen, it wasn’t picture perfect form, but these guys handled weights that I’ve never seen anything like that. Nothing like that since. Of course, now I have the opportunity to see the newer pros workout, not really, but I’ve never seen anything like it.
John Hansen:
I saw a video of Bertil Fox training, he did… He trained super heavy, like real heavy weights
Phil Williams:
Super heavy. My workout partner, my English workout partner trained with him a few times. He said never again. He stopped. Bertil had two workout partners. Basically, their job was to hand him his dumbbells.
John Hansen:
Right, exactly. I remember that, I saw that in the video.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. He couldn’t work out by himself. He couldn’t pick up the weight… He couldn’t do it. So I’ve never seen anything like that since.
John Hansen:
It’s interesting, when I talked to Dorian Yates, Dorian was obviously a very hard trainer and he was one of the hardest trainers, I think, ever in the history of bodybuilding.
Phil Williams:
Absolutely.
John Hansen:
But he talked about how over the last 10, even 20 years, you don’t hear anymore about this guy training super hard or this guy training… You don’t hear any stories, or you don’t hear any new ways to train, or new types of training methodology. You just don’t really hear about that anymore from the pros.
Phil Williams:
No you don’t. But what I see more than anything else is guys straying away from the basic compound exercises. I’ve seen more guys relying on machines like hammer string. Imagine doing a seated row with a chest pad. You’re not getting the full extension at all, you’re not stretching the muscle, it’s just the contraction mostly. A lot of these movements, the range is limited. You’re limiting the range of motion. There’s no full extension there’s no maximum contraction. And that’s the machines, they start to rely on machines. I guess they’re easier to use of course.
John Hansen:
Sure. Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And I hate to say this, in our watered down society that we now live in, that this is what’s happened.
John Hansen:
Yeah. I know. I was in the gym the other day and I was doing back. I had a… I strained my back last week. So I was icing it and doing yoga and stuff. And then I went in on Sunday to do back. I was supposed to do it on Friday and I ended up doing on Sunday. So I just said, “Well, I’ll see what I can do.” So it was feeling okay because I stretched it and everything, and I did some yoga that morning. So I was able to do a two-arm dumbbell rows. I went pretty heavy on those. I’m like, “Huh, okay.”
John Hansen:
So after that I was going to just go do seated cable rows where normally I would have did T-bar rows. So I said, “Well, let me go try T-bar rows.” So I went over and I tried T-bar rows and I ended up going heavier than I did my last workout. And I’m looking around, and of course this was a Sunday, but there was like, I must have saw six people on their cell phones sitting on the machines. Nobody was doing any basic exercises at all. They’re all use the machines, like you said, and they’re just sitting on the bench. And I’m just like, “Wow, there’s just no intensity at all.” You’re right, nobody does the compound movements. Nobody does the basics. They always just choose these machines instead.
Phil Williams:
And the sad thing is they’re starting to slowly take away the equipment. And that’s what they did with the two bar row at Gold’s gym. It was a perfectly good mechanism and they took it away. I’m still angry about it. It just vanished.
John Hansen:
And when you think about it-
Phil Williams:
And that could be the vertical leg press, I can see the vertical leg press, it’s always broke. I don’t know what butt hole doesn’t know how to use a machine that runs straight up and down. But it’s broke, it’s taped up right now as we speak, again.
John Hansen:
Wow.
Phil Williams:
Yes. It’s incredible. The next thing you know, what they’re going to do, they’re going to take it away. I feel it. I feel it coming. So, I don’t know, John. I’m glad. I’m happy, I always tell my wife, I said, “You know what? I’m glad my time was in the 70s and in the 80s.” Good time to do it. A real good time to do it. I wouldn’t want to do it now.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
Of course, there’s more shows than ever. How many pro shows do they have a year now?
John Hansen:
I don’t know. I don’t even know.
Phil Williams:
I tried to keep up with them, but… I would say like 20.
John Hansen:
Yeah, that’s right.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. They had different places. You might have one in Kuwait and you had one the same time maybe in, let’s say, Chicago, on the same night.
John Hansen:
Yep.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. So there’s a lot of shows.
John Hansen:
Last weekend there was one in Chicago and there was one in Vancouver at the same time.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. At the same time. See, that’s what I’m saying. But none of these shows are really covered. I miss the magazines.
John Hansen:
Me too. Totally.
Phil Williams:
I miss the magazines dearly.
John Hansen:
Yeah. And about that equipment, you think about guys like Joe Gold or George Turner, they built the equipment or they got the equipment specifically for their members. I remember hearing stories about Joe Gold, like he would ask the members like, “How does this feel? How does this seated cable really feel?”
Phil Williams:
Absolutely.
John Hansen:
Then they would change it in order to make it a better exercise.
Phil Williams:
George did that with me. When I was there-
John Hansen:
Yeah?
Phil Williams:
Oh yeah. We developed a seated long pulley row, not the seated row, seated long pulley row, which means that cable was real long. And I mean it was long. It was like 15 feet long from the waist stack to the end of the seat would be like almost 15 feet.
John Hansen:
Yeah.
Phil Williams:
And you had different places where you could set your feet for different lengths to the body or different arm lengths.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
And that was there. It was a great machine for doing seated rows. One of the best I’ve ever used. I haven’t used anything like it since. And that goes back to the 70s.
John Hansen:
Most students wouldn’t do that today because it would take up too much space. You know?
Phil Williams:
That’s true. You’re probably right about that. So you see, when we did seater rows together, what I had to do in order to get a full extension was to put the plate, the metal plate, in front of the machine that split perfectly.
John Hansen:
Right.
Phil Williams:
That how I…. Other than that, I get a short range of motion. The plates tap out before I get a full stretch.
John Hansen:
Right, exactly.
Phil Williams:
Yeah. So I don’t know, maybe one day there’ll be a need for somebody to come and redesign equipment and… Who knows?Go back to the old school ways. Because now most of the machines that you see now, they’re smaller and they’re more compact. And that’s for space of course, right?
John Hansen:
Right, exactly. They’re just trying to make it the most economical way to run the gym. But they’re not doing it for the best equipment.
Phil Williams:
Absolutely right. Absolutely right.
John Hansen:
Well, at least we lived during the golden age, Phil, when we got-
Phil Williams:
It’s absolutely golden, man. Like I said, going back, looking at Venice, I remember how crazy it was. And it was real training, it was real bodybuilders, and that time kind of died. After 95, 96, it just went away. So that lasts what, 25 years maybe, right? Seventies eighties and… Yeah.
John Hansen:
And it’s funny too, when you were living through it, I’m sure you didn’t think that was the golden age. That was just the way things were back then, but you didn’t know was not going to last.
Phil Williams:
No, I never thought it would go away.
John Hansen:
Right, exactly.
Phil Williams:
Never thought it would go away. It’s amazing.
John Hansen:
Rick Valente said the same thing. He goes, “Thank God I was alive during that time. And I told him the same thing. I said, “Yeah, I hate being older, but I’m glad that at least I got to be around during that time and see those contests, and see those bodybuilders, and see that type of training and all that stuff.”
Phil Williams:
Absolutely man.
John Hansen:
All right Phil, thanks for joining us on the show again and thanks for all your great stories. You’ve got some great stories, from George Turner’s place, and Gold’s gym, and Sweden and all that. So it was great hearing the stories.
Phil Williams:
Oh, I wish I could remember all of them, John. There’s a lot of them I’m forgetting. They’ll come. They’ll pop in mind later on, of course.
John Hansen:
All right, well, write them-
Phil Williams:
When I’m about to fall asleep, when I can’t sleep, when I’m having a one of those insomnia nights, all these stories really start flying in my head. Then I start laughing crazy. And I start thinking, “That was just crazy. Craziest shit I’ve ever seen.” So many of them though.
John Hansen:
Well, write them down next time. We’ll have you on again.
Phil Williams:
All right. Sounds good. I appreciate it buddy.
John Hansen:
All right, next time I’m out there we’ll train together again.
Phil Williams:
Yeah, lets do it, lets plan that.
John Hansen:
Okay. All right, Phil. Sounds good, buddy. All right, take care.
Phil Williams:
Take care my friend.
John Hansen:
All right, you too. Bye. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Bodybuilding Legends podcast brought to you by our sponsor, Old School Labs. Thanks to Phil Williams for joining us this week. Join us next week on the Bodybuilding Legends podcast when we’ll be joined by Craig Monson, another great bodybuilder from the 1980s and 90s. Craig was a monster, a man before his time. And so we’re going to have a great interview with Craig Monson about his career in the bodybuilding world. So join us next week. See you guys next week. Have a great week everybody. See you then. Take care.
![Chris Aceto – Bodybuilding Legends Podcast with John Hansen [S7E7]](https://www.oldschoollabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Chris-Aceto-Thumbnail2.png)
![Roger Callard – Bodybuilding Legends Podcast With John Hansen [S1E2]](https://www.oldschoollabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Roger-Callard-Thumbnail-Optimized.png)
![Randy Roach – Bodybuilding Legends Podcast With John Hansen [S1E1]](https://www.oldschoollabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Randy-Roach-Thumbnail_Optimized-400x400.png)