Randy Roach – Bodybuilding Legends Podcast With John Hansen [S1E1]

John talks to Muscle, Smoke & Mirrors author Randy Roach about the movie “Pumping Iron”. Randy discusses the genesis of both the book and the movie “Pumping Iron”.

Randy also talks about several bodybuilders who could have been included in the movie but were not and how the movie could have been different, what really happened with Serge Nubret before the 1975 Mr. Olympia and how much of an impact the movie had on the bodybuilding and fitness industry in the future.

Full Transcript

(Intro Music)

John Hansen:

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All right, welcome everybody to the first episode of the Bodybuilding Legends Podcast. I’m your host John Hansen and I’m very excited to be hosting my first Bodybuilding Legends Podcast. And like the name of the Podcast says, we are going to be talking about the legendary years of bodybuilding. The golden age of bodybuilding, from the 1960’s to the 1990’s.

For those of you who have been following me on YouTube maybe have seen some of my Bodybuilding Legends interviews, where I’ve done extensive interviews with some of the legends of bodybuilding like Boyer Coe and Phil Grant, Mike Katz, Shawn Ray, Lee Haney, Rich Gaspari. I’ve got like 22 video interviews up right now. And we have a new website at the bodybuildinglegendsshow.com and I’ve got all of those interviews on there.

So we are now starting a weekly Podcast on the show and we’re going to talk about different topics related to the classic era of bodybuilding. And season one of the Bodybuilding Legends Podcast is going to be all about the movie Pumping Iron, this is the 40th anniversary of the movie Pumping Iron. It was released in January of 1977.

It was a very iconic movie. Probably the best documentary ever made about bodybuilding. It was inspiring people to start working out 40 years ago and it’s still inspiring them today to work out. It’s a great movie. It really introduced Arnold Schwarzenegger and Lou Ferrigno to the bodybuilding public and it started their entertainment careers. So it’s a great movie and we’re going to talk about it.

I was actually in the theater back in 1977 to see the movie. So we’ve got some great guests in this season one of the Bodybuilding Legends Podcast. We’re going to talk to a couple of the bodybuilders that were actually in the movie, including Bill Grant, Roger Callard, and Mike Katz.

And we’re going to an IFBB judge. Roger Schwab was around during the 1970s. He actually walked in with Arnold in that scene where Arnold walks into Gold’s Gym in Pumping Iron. And we’re going to talk to the write of the book Pumping Iron, Charles Gaines.

But today on episode number one we’re going to talk to author Randy Roach. Randy is the author of the book Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors. It’s actually a three-volume set.

Volume one came out in like 2008. It was a really big book; over 500 pages. And Randy covers basically the whole history of bodybuilding in his books Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors. He starts off in the 1800s talking about how bodybuilding got started and some of bodybuilders who really started the sport off, including Eugene Sandow.

Then in volume two, which is the book we’re going to be talking about today, that came out in 2011. That was an even bigger book, almost 700 pages. And Randy’s got a couple of chapters in there about the movie Pumping Iron. So he talked to Charles Gaines and George Butler for his book and he’s got some great information about the book Pumping Iron and about the movie Pumping Iron.

We’re specifically going to talk about the movie Pumping Iron, because Randy’s going to talk about several bodybuilders who were around during that time who could’ve been in the movie and it really would’ve made a different type of movie if these guys would’ve been in it. But they weren’t involved in the movie.

We’re also going to talk about what happened with Serge Nubret, ’cause Serge Nubret, if you remember, took second to Arnold Schwarzenegger at the 1975 Mr. Olympia. But he was only featured for a small part in the movie. He said that he should’ve been featured in it more. So we’re going to talk to Randy about that.

We’re going to talk to Randy about the difficulties that Charles Gaines and George Butler had in getting the book made. And then the difficulties that George Butler had getting the movie made.

So we’ve got a really fascinating interview with Randy Roach. If you don’t know anything about Randy, he’s actually blind. He’s visually impaired. So the fact that Randy was able to do these massive volumes, three books, is really amazing.

And book three, which I didn’t talk about, was about the 1980 and 1981 Mr. Olympia’s. And actually I was a big part of that book ’cause he had me talk about the 1981 Mr. Olympia that I was at. So he used me pretty extensively in book one, volume three because it was a smaller edition of volume three. He’s going to be coming out with more books of volume three.

All right, let’s get to our interview with Randy Roach, the author of Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors. We’re going to be talking about the movie Pumping Iron. Here it is.

Randy Roach the Author

John Hansen:

All right, my guest this week is Mr. Randy Roach. Randy has written a series of movies called Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors. He has now, I think, volume one, two, and three. We’re going to talk to Randy today about the movie Pumping Iron, since this is the 40th anniversary this year. It came out in 1977. Randy talks pretty extensively about both the book and the movie Pumping Iron in his volume two of Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors.

So Randy, it’s great to have you on the show! Good to talk to you again.

Randy Roach:

Thanks for having me on, John. Like I said, I guess it was about seven/eight years since I was on your show before.

John Hansen:

Yeah. I had that Natural Bodybuilding radio show back in 2009/2010. I think we had you on right after the volume one came out.

Randy Roach:

Yeah.

John Hansen:

So, yeah time goes by huh?

Randy Roach:

It certainly does.

John Hansen:

Well Randy before we start talking about Pumping Iron tell us what’s going on with Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors. Because I know you came out with two huge volumes, volume one and two, and then volume three was sort of a smaller volume. You were going to come out I think a little bit … You were going to do smaller books, right, so you could bring them out more often instead of putting in such a big book?

Randy Roach:

I don’t know about more often. It’s the fact that one of the criticisms of the books refers to the size. I understood. A 700 page book, it can be intimidating.

So I thought, well I would do volume three … I wasn’t sure how far I was even going to go with it. So I said, “Well I’ve got a lot of information already drafted.” Some of that information in volume two drafted back eight years. In fact, the prologue for volume three, book one was done close to six years ago I started it-

John Hansen:

Wow.

Randy Roach:

… and then I finished it up there. Because the book at first was going to be one book, two books, three books. It just kept growing and growing and growing.

So I would just break it up and the first one in the 1980s. It was a great start with the first … 1980/81 Mr. Olympia, which you had a really significant part in that first book because of your firsthand information. I thought you had a great analysis of the 1981 Mr. Olympia’s great.

John Hansen:

Yeah, thank you.

Randy Roach:

But I don’t when I’m going to do … I got … For sure I’m going to do one more; volume two. I have a lot of information on the women. Like I said, I drafted the women up probably seven years ago. And then I have a lot of good information between the quirky relationship between Wayne DeMilia and the Weider brothers. It’s outrageous. Most people, I don’t think, have a clue what was going on behind the scenes between Wayne DeMilia and Ben and Joe Weider. That story, I think, really needs to be told.

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

It’s kind of coming up to probably culminate, just the bodybuilding story, with what’s going on right now with the lawsuits and the NSL and the NPC and all that stuff going on.

I am writing another book right now. I’ve always had an interest in nutrition and I put an ebook out called Food Intelligence. It’s mostly based on a 10 part raw food series I did.

But right now I’m writing one on … I don’t have a title for you. It was going to be a bigger book, probably 200 to 300 pages on … inspired by Arnold’s request for us to become vegetarian … vegetarians at the 2015 Paris Climate Conference. I did a Podcast but turned it into a book.

There’s going to be a lot of politics in this book. I drafted a lot of politics and it surrounds nutrition through the 20th century, and this is the book that that’s going into. So I’m hoping I get that one out this year. Then I’ll probably head back to book two of volume three for Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors.

John Hansen:

Okay. All right.

John Hansen:

Well, let’s start our discussion about Pumping Iron because, like I said, in volume two you’ve got a lot of information on there. In fact, I’ve been in bodybuilding for now 40 years and you had some stuff in here that I didn’t even know about. So it was pretty wild how you get some of this inside information.

But before we talk about-

Randy Roach:

Yeah, like … Okay, go ahead. Sorry.

John Hansen:

… No, go ahead.

Randy Roach:

No I was going to say, I was shocked too when I was researching because I didn’t know that. You know, you’re thinking you’ve been around, you’re thinking everything else and you’re humbled right? I didn’t know that at all.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

But it was … I was lucky to have George and Charles cooperate with me. It was very helpful.

John Hansen:

So you did talk to both Charles Gaines and George Butler for the book, huh?

Randy Roach:

Oh yeah definitely, to get that information. Even Jerome Gary and a couple of others because … I was lucky because Charles, I heard, didn’t do anymore interviews and Wayne DeMilia got me in touch with George Butler. George Butler liked what I was doing and George convinced Charles to speak. And Charles is a good guy.

They liked the first one, so they cooperated with book three and somewhat. And the next book is Pumping Iron, the Women, right? When doing my women’s chapter, I pumped out the second Pumping Iron series. I had that all drafted up. But yeah, they were great to speak to.

John Hansen:

Well before we start talking about the movie let’s talk about the book Pumping Iron. Some of the newcomers to bodybuilding today may not realize that there was even a book before there was a movie.

I guess they started, Charles and George Butler, got really started together back in 1972 when they were hired to write an article for Sports Illustrated about bodybuilding and this was kind of the coming out of bodybuilding into the public eye, right?

Randy Roach:

Yeah. It was the early 70s. Bodybuilding was starting … Arnold Schwarzenegger had just appeared on TV. Probably around 1971, maybe spring of ’71 they aired the ABC Wide World of Sports, had the 1970 Mr. World. The World Weightlifting Championships? I actually watched that when I was a kid, when that came out.

That’s the first time I saw both Sergio and Arnold on TV. I’d seen Dave Draper before. But by then it started coming into the public eye and you know with Arthur Jones with his Nautilus thing to help the … People were becoming more health conscious. Things were starting to pick up and Charles Gaines and George Butler came around just the right time as well.

Charles was the writer. He got the offer from Sports Illustrated. George was the photographer. They hit it off in, I think, July of ’72 at the IFBB Mr. East Coast. They would’ve just missed the 1972 AAU Mr. America, because that was my first question. Why did they pick the IFBB’s as opposed to AAU in terms of work because you were covering an amateur sport.

But they had missed the Mr. America so they caught the IFBB Mr East Coast in Holyoke, Massachusetts. And it was quite a popular … What is it called? Cutting some striking … Cutting Some Fancy Figures, I think was the name of the article.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

It came out July 10, 1972 issue of Sports Illustrated. It actually went over quite well.

Charles was working then at We Magazine at the time and they wanted an article on bodybuilding. And George went along with him to … in the fall to the Mr. America, Mr. World … I don’t think … what else they had? That show, IFBB, in I think Brooklyn.

John Hansen:

Brooklyn? Brooklyn, New York?

The Competitions

Randy Roach:

Brooklyn Academy. Yeah. Where that’s where they met Arnold. That’s where they first met Arnold and had lunch with Arnold. Because I was always curious why didn’t they follow Arnold in Germany to cover the Olympia? Why did they go off to Baghdad, Iraq and cover the Mr. Universe show?

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

And we can see why at that time. Mr. Olympia, it just wasn’t much of a show. It wasn’t as popular as compared to the Mr. Universe in Iraq was a major extravaganza, huge with a lot of respect and a huge turnout.

Where over in 1971, Arnold competed uncontested for the Mr. Olympia. Like he was just above  average of most of those guys that year. That was the year that Sergio went against Reg Park and Bill Pearl, right? So it showed you that the IFBB did not have the drawing power. It was still inaba. Mr. Universe had the drawing power in 1971.

So I kind of realized then, okay that’s why George and Charles decided to go to Iraq and cover the Mr. Universe World Championships in 1972. It was between that September Mr. America and Mr. World show Ed Corney had won. That’s Ed Corney and Mike Katz. I think Ken Waller was supposed to go too, but he became sick or something like that. So it was just Mike Katz, Ed Corney, and Tom Minechiello that went over.

But sometime between that September show and the Mr. Universe they had decided they were going to make a book. They got a down payment … put money for Double Day Publishing where Charles had, I think, known the publisher there because he had written his novel Stay Hungry. Stay Hungry was a novel before it became a movie.

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

‘Cause there was a lot of overlap between those movies, Pumping Iron and Stay Hungry.

John Hansen:

Why did they go to the 1972 Mr. America? Because they covered the Mr. East Coast in the summer and that was for Sports Illustrated, but were they just interested in bodybuilding at the time?

Randy Roach:

Charles had a request from We Magazine to go and cover another show. Then George went there representing The Village Voice as the photographer. So they went to the Brooklyn Academy.

Arnold and Franco were there as guest posers. Because that…

John Hansen:

And that was like before the Mr. Olympia, right? And that’s in Germany.

Randy Roach:

… Yeah, yeah. So they were guest posing. That’s where they had breakfast … Franco and Arnold had breakfast with Charles and George and they got to meet Arnold there. Pretty charmed with Arnold and they thought he had potential and stuff but they actually liked Mike Katz quite a bit too; and Ed Corney. Charles said they were fascinated with those guys. Mike was just enormous at that time as well. He’s just a big guy. So they liked his personality.

So they went off to Iraq and Baghdad. I wish … I thought it would have been interesting had Charles and George as outside journalists gone to [inaudible 00:16:02] in Germany and how … I’d like to see how they would’ve covered that show because of the controversy there. Everybody figures Sergio should’ve won that show. Even Arnold said if he was the judge he would’ve picked Sergio for that show. But like I said, I think there was only five competitors in the whole show over in Germany.

John Hansen:

Did Mike Katz beat Ken Waller at that Mr. World in 1972?

Randy Roach:

Yes he did. I believe that’s the one where he did beat … he beat Ken Waller.

John Hansen:

Yeah, that’s interesting. So then Ken Waller … I mean, I’m sorry Mike Katz and Ed Corney go off to the Mr. Universe. So then they made plans to go to Baghdad, Iraq to cover that Mr. Universe? And that was part of the book Pumping Iron.

Randy Roach:

Yeah and Ed Corney had won that Mr. Universe show.

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

Yeah and then the second part of the book was the 1973 Mr. Olympia at the Brooklyn Academy. It was too bad the incident in Tijuana where Mr. International … where Sergio clashed with Joe Weider and then basically he was banned from the IPB so he didn’t compete that year. Otherwise, he would’ve been there in New York against Arnold in 1973.

Wayne DeMilia was there and he was … That’s the first time he had saw Arnold compete. Wayne was quite young. He’d just come to work with Tom Minichiello. That was the show where Dan Lurie and Tom Minichiello clashed with dates.

They both had their shows … Dan had booked [inaudible 00:17:42] as a guest poser and he had a lot of … as a guest speaker. He had a lot of great guest posers showing up. Sergio and I think Boyer Coe and then Tom Minichiello had his Mr. Olympia and Mr. America with Lou Ferrigno he won the Mr. America that year before he bolted from the WBBG over to the IFBB.

Because Wayne was working with Tom Minichiello he wanted to go see both shows, but they held them on the same day. You had to choose so he went to Brooklyn Academy to watch Mr. Olympia. But that’s the first time he saw Arnold and he said he was just amazed. Amazed at Arnold when he saw him.

So those two contests, the ’72 Mr. Universe and the ’73 Mr. Olympia constituted the book Pumping Iron that was published in November of 1974.

John Hansen:

So did Charles Gaines and George, particularly George Butler because he was the one behind the movie, but was it because of Arnold … after meeting Arnold in 1972 and then covering him in 1973 for the book. Was that the impetus for doing the movie?

Randy Roach:

Yeah. When they first met him they thought he had the potential and stuff, but they didn’t really think much more of that. But as they got to know Arnold and with the success of the book, the book had some pretty coverage, that George wanted to take it into a movie, where Charles kind of backed away.

I think he surrendered the title rights to George and Charles narrated it. It was Charles who narrated the movie, but he didn’t take as big a role. It was mostly George who was going to take all the … Like I said in the book, the career Haymakers on the chin from doing the movie. He took loans, I think by … The book came out in ’74, but ’75, April of ’75, he thought he would do a sample film.

He borrowed $30,000 and went back to Holyoke Massachusetts and did a little sample film with Arnold. He aired it in front of a small private audience and he was just ridiculed. George said he was close to … He told me, he said he was close to tears and his wife Jenn hugged him and said, “I never felt so bad for somebody in my life.” So they kept thinking.

These are two very intelligent, articulate guys putting it all on the line for bodybuilding and they’re taking a beating. They’re taking a professional and an emotional beating. Charles Gaines … I said, “Charles does it bother you that you guys could gone off and done anything else and been successful?” He said he got used to it. He got used to just ignoring it.

George had to do that too because he was just running into brick walls. Especially the gay stigma to it at that time. Everywhere … Every way they turned there was the homosexual thing again, right? George’s old lady friend said, “Oh George, I didn’t know you were gay,” just because he was doing a movie on bodybuilding. It automatically makes him gay. It was ridiculous.

So he had to … He still plowed on in April of ’75 he kept moving on. But at the same time Bob Rafelson, director, somebody had sent him a copy of Charles Gaines Stay Hungry novel and he liked it. So he wanted to make that into a movie.

They were starting to shoot for Stay Hungry in April of 1975. Whereas George Butler is going to start shooting a lot of the same body builders, if you’ve seen … no doubt seen both movies, correct?

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

So you’ll see the same bodybuilders were in both movies.

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

They trained for Stay Hungry. Like Ken Waller had a pretty good part in Stay Hungry. I thought it was funny. Only in bodybuilding and Hollywood, Arnold was still too … They wanted Arnold to come down to 210 pounds. He was still too big to play a bodybuilder. Crazy, right? A bodybuilder was too big to play a bodybuilder. So Waller looked pretty good in that show.

So they just kept training right after Stay Hungry right into their countdown training for Mr. Olympia through the summer of 1975. So they had that overlapping, filming and training for those two movies.

I was going to mention another thing too that’s kind of funny with the book. When Double Day gave George and Charles the down payment to go do the book, but when they came back with the manuscript they demanded their money back. That’s the walls they’re running into.

It was Simon and Schuster that came through for the publishing of the book. But-

John Hansen:

I think you mentioned that too, ’cause you were talking about the movie and the problems they were having. But they also had problems with the book. Then the book ended up being a big success, right, when it was finally released?

Randy Roach:

… Yeah, I think over the years they sold over 800,000 copies.

John Hansen:

Wow! Yeah.

Randy Roach:

We were … I think we were talking about both movies, Stay Hungry and Pumping Iron. They were overlapping in their filming going through the summer. They were filming a lot of the …

George, he went over to Sardinia for a couple of weeks to film Franco’s family up in the mountains there. They filmed all across the United States. They were getting quite a bit of footage on the different bodybuilders depending on the outcome, but i kind of sarcastically said in the book said they could’ve probably just asked Joe and saved a lot of filming of what the outcome was going to be.

But I think … This is the whole thing about Pumping Iron, the only guy they didn’t get much film footage of was Serge Nubret. That’s a big issue with the movie. I mean, there was a lot of stuff that went on in Pretoria and I don’t blame-

John Hansen:

Before you get into that, was one of the reasons that Charles Gaines wasn’t so involved with the movie Pumping Iron was because they were filming Stay Hungry around that same time that George was getting ready to start filming Pumping Iron?

Randy Roach:

… He never said … He never gave me that as a reason why. Because Stay Hungry, that didn’t come along until I think like the spring 1975 and it was right around the time George was going to … I mean, Charles was more wrapped up with … He probably spent more time with George on Pumping Iron because Rafelson took the novel, the Stay Hungry novel, and was going to go with that script.

But Arnold was crisscrossing because he played Joe Santos in Stay Hungry. I’m not sure how long they filmed. I know he started in April. I don’t know how many months that they filmed.

John Hansen:

One thing I didn’t know reading your book, Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors, was that the book Stay Hungry was a finalist for the National Book Awards in 1972. I didn’t know that it was such a well received book.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. Charles is a good writer. He was … When he was asked to write the Sports Illustrated article, I think he was an assistant professor at one of the universities at the time; colleges at the time. He had a Masters in creative writing.

So like I said, both of these guys were very talented. Yeah. They were very good. I like … I enjoyed his writing, even in Pumping Iron and stuff and-

John Hansen:

Me too.

Randy Roach:

… I quoted him quite a bit; especially with the women. I thought he had good insight.

Even when he judged there was issues of some raised eyebrows that he judged at the 1975 Mr. Olympia. But he had judged earlier in 1974. But he was probably more qualified as the judge than most of the people that graced the IFBB judging panels over the years. ‘Cause he was kind of like a throwback to the Eugene Sandow and Bernarr Macfadden days where they wanted artists and men of science and stuff that knew anatomy and symmetry to look at it from that perspective, and that’s how Charles did it.

I don’t think there was any big problems. Like I said, he showed good judgment in 1980 when he … Arnold asked him to come to Australia and he said no. And I asked him, “Why did you say no?” He said, “‘Cause I knew he was going to ask me to be a judge,” and he didn’t want to be a part of that. ‘Cause he wasn’t sure Arnold could win. In ’75 he was pretty sure that Arnold was going to win, because then nobody else was allowed in.

But in 1980 he said, he wasn’t sure. He didn’t want to get caught up in that. So I thought it was a good … Arnold and Maria were very angry with him for a long time. But I think he made the right decision.

So like I said, he judged … I think he judged in 1970 … 1976 Mr. Olympia as well.

John Hansen:

But he was at the 1875 Mr. Olympia, right? He was there?

Randy Roach:

Oh yeah, he was there. He judged it. He was one of the judges. He judged in ’74, he judged in ’75, he judged in ’76

Like I said, people would be … If you’re looking at the movie Pumping Iron, most people didn’t know Arnold retired after ’74. George Butler had to entice him out with … George wouldn’t give the amount. Jerome Gary, who co-produced with George, he told me they offered Arnold $50,000 and I think 5% of the cut of the film to get him to compete again.

So if most of the competitors … If any of the competitors knew at that time that Arnold’s being paid $50,000 to compete and then Charles Gaines is going to judge the contest, a lot of them are going to say, “What the hell,” right?

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

But Charles is pretty straight up. I think Charles is straight up with his judging, but there was other shenanigans going on I think with Serge Nubret that we can talk about in a bit, if you want,-

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

… when it came down to the contest time.

They were … Charles … I mean, George had his storylines that he wanted. Even in book one of volume three I talked about another situation that happened in Pretoria with Danny Padilla. Where him and Mike Katz, there was four of them sent over to the Mr. Universe Show. You can only send three, a lightweight, a middleweight, and a heavyweight.

So that was another issue that I believe was settled with George Butler. Because they … Danny was ousted, which didn’t make any sense, because Danny … I’m quite sure if Ben would’ve had his way, he would’ve liked to have Danny in so the United States could’ve swept the light … I can’t remember if they went tall or weight, but a taller class at that time. They would’ve got the short, medium, and tall class.

But for some reason Mike … Neither Mike or Ken Waller had won a contest since 1974. Or ’73.

John Hansen:

Right because that year, Danny won the Mr. USA in ’75-

Randy Roach:

That’s right.

John Hansen:

… and Robby Robinson won the Mr. World, so they were automatically on the team.

Randy Roach:

That’s right.

John Hansen:

And then they had … And the only reason both Ken Waller and Mike Katz went over was because of the movie, right?

Randy Roach:

I think so, because the tall guys who won the USA and the America that year lost overall to Danny and Robby.

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

So you can say they were the outstanding guys.

The Politics

Randy Roach:

I understand Mike and Ken were world-renowned, or internationally known, huge bodybuilders. That day they were the big guys, right? People wanted to see them. I can understand that.

But another reason I think Danny got bumped is because, over there they were going …. Ed [inaudible 00:29:43] was going to make Mike Katz and Ken Waller pose down. And the loser, because both of them were Mr. World winners, they were eligible to compete in the Olympia. That’s why Mike Katz competed in the Mr. Olympia, in ’76. But none of them had trained and none of them wanted to go again.

So they trained for the Mr. Universe and they did not train to go against Arnold. And George Butler did not shoot any footage. He shot the footage of those guys to compete in the Universe, not against Arnold. George had his storyline with Lou and Arnold.

So I asked Charles … George is not well these days, so I plainly asked Charles, “Is this a possibility?” He goes, “It certainly was a possibility.” He said he wouldn’t be … He goes, “I can’t say if that happened.” But he said he would not be surprised if George had a say in that.

So they just said to Danny, “You’re 24. You’re going to have your day in the sun. Step down.” And they let both Mike and Ken in the two heavyweights and two tall guys.

John Hansen:

Yeah and a lot of people don’t know that story, but Danny really got screwed that year.

Randy Roach:

Oh totally. Totally. He got heartbroken, right? Then you know, Mike Katz, he encouraged me … He had no … He didn’t know what was going on either, even to this time, he…

John Hansen:

Oh really? Okay.

Randy Roach:

… He wanted me to pursue it. To find out why, what happened. Because he said he was told he was going to compete, so he wasn’t trying to weasel his way in on anything. He was told that he was going to compete and so was Danny.

So they had this little quagmire thing going there. Then it had to be resolved over there last minute and Danny got bumped out. That’s … Like I said, there was a lot of things going on behind.

John Hansen:

Do you think George wanted Mike in the movie because he was in the book and he liked him personally?

Randy Roach:

Absolutely. He liked him personally and he got a lot of film on him. He had a good storyline with Mike and wanted him in the movie.

John Hansen:

Yeah, Mike Katz in the movie was sort of the every man that everybody could relate to. He was picked on when he was younger and the underdog. He wanted … He was coming back, right? Remember he said in the movie that he came back like four times to try and win Mr. Universe?

Randy Roach:

… Yeah. Fantastic athlete too.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

I remember listening to him on your show. I think it was your show where he said he ran a … what was it, a 4:06, in his full gear on grass and went back with a jet?

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

Was that on your show?

John Hansen:

And at the time… people don’t remember how big he was, you know? He was … When he came out and he was posing, he was so huge compared to most of the bodybuilders back then.

Randy Roach:

Yeah and Bill Kosibo , he’s in Florida; gym owner. He was telling me how big Mike was and he had seen a lot of people, but in person he said Mike is just a huge guy. Huge guy.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

So I think you’re right. George wanted him competing in the Mr. Universe. That’s where he had planned. That’s where the storylines were. That’s where the film all took place. So that’s probably why that happened.

John Hansen:

And one thing I wanted to go back to talking to you about, Randy, is when you said that George Butler went to where Arnold was filming Stay Hungry and he asked him to be in the movie, because at this point, like you said, Arnold was already retired. He retired in ’74 and he said he had to be in the movie, but he had to compete in order to be in the movie.

Then they offered him $50,000 to be in the movie, which is a lot of money back in 1975. Plus, 5%, I think you said, of the net that the movie would make.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. I’ve heard other numbers too. Even more, but I don’t think it would be more. $50,000, like you say, in 1975 was a lot of money in bodybuilding. Way more than … ‘Cause I know even Dan Lurie offering Sergio and Arnold $5,000 to come compete in this 1974 Pro Show was a lot money at that time. So, $50,000 bucks was …. is definitely going to draw Arnold out.

And this is the whole thing, did they pay Arnold $50,000 to come back, certainly not to lose. He was the main storyline. The guy i always said he should’ve been in Pumping Iron. It was Sergio.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

You know, for the movie the guy was colorful, he was huge. He was always an antagonist to Arnold. He’s always … Arnold’s peer. I mean, he beat Arnold before.

But Charles said any talk of Sergio at that time was met with a negative reaction. They just did not want Sergio in there. At least Ben and those guys didn’t. So it was … They only had Lou and Arnold in the tall class. Sergio had always … I mean, Serge had been planning to come, but like I said there is three different versions about what happened with Serge Nubret.

John Hansen:

Yeah, I want to talk about that also. But yeah that is a shame that Sergio was not … I mean, it’s kind of weird that Sergio was sort of out of both the book and the movie because I think the last time he competed with Arnold was in ’72. Then in ’73 they had that Tijuana incident at the Mr. International where Sergio challenged Arnold. Then after that, he was out.

Then he didn’t go to the Olympia that year, which was only a couple of weeks after that show. And then that was the one where it was covered in the book Pumping Iron. So if Sergio would’ve been in that Mr. Olympia then he definitely would’ve been covered in the book.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. No I’m not sure. I don’t think he was banned yet, but I think the point was Sergio knew he got screwed in Tijuana. He’s going to get screwed in Brooklyn so he said, “What the hell? Why go there?” ‘Cause he was getting better coverage and winning in NABBA.

And I don’t … Sergio only, I’m not sure, I think he only competed in the one NABBA show. He was … I meant to say he was getting better coverage with Dan and his WBBG at that time and stuff.

But yeah, it’s a missed opportunity but again, we see that often with the Weider’s they don’t care about that. It’s always something else that takes priority over giving the audience what they really want to see.

John Hansen:

Yes, the champion … Sergio and Arnold didn’t compete more often. They only competed like four times, right? ’69 and ’70 and ’72.

Randy Roach:

Yeah and ’72. And it should’ve probably been a split because Sergio should’ve probably won in ’72.

John Hansen:

Yeah. Yeah.

Pumping Iron

John Hansen:

Let’s talk about some other guys that could’ve been in the movie. Or could’ve been in a contest and never were. One, which I didn’t know until I read your book, was Steve Michalik who was actually training with Lou Ferrigno that year. Then I guess Lou’s father Matty sort of came along and took over the training with Lou and then Steve was kind of out of it, right?

Randy Roach:

Yeah, Steve thought that was the downfall for Lou to go train with his dad. And I agree. I mean, Michalik was an animal. Lou probably would’ve benefited from training with Steve more. That whole slant with Lou and his dad.

But Steve said he was going to … That Arnold had contacted him to come to move to California. He’s going to hook him up with a roommate; with Roger Callard and come train. Compete in Olympia. But he was training to go compete in the NABBA Universe in the fall. It’s not likely he would’ve been allowed to compete in the Olympia because everybody, even Sergio, Frank Zane, Dennis Tinerino …

Dennis Tinerino won the Pro Mr. Universe in the summer of ’75 that Frank put on. Won $5,000. He would be the odds on challenger. He got disqualified and banned from going because of a show he competed in and I couldn’t find anything other than two years earlier. It might’ve been more that his escort service might have got him the boot out.

But Dennis is a very, was a very articulate guy and smart guy. He would’ve been a great interview and a great guy to have in the show, but he was out. They got rid of him too.

And Michalik, he’s a good speaker. Jerome Gary said he found Steve very intelligent, but he said he never saw him with his sweats off. So he didn’t know that Steve was planning to come in very big, 220 or so, but he had that very small, small waist, right?

These guys all would’ve added lots of color to it, but they’re … Like I said, Steve got hit by a dump truck anyways. He couldn’t do it, but I don’t think he would’ve been allowed because he competed in the NABBA. He probably would’ve been disqualified for competing.

But like I said, with Dennis and Sergio, these were good guys that have been really added to the mix, but they were in the show. And then Serge Nubret was almost not in the show either.

John Hansen:

Yeah. So [inaudible 00:38:30] with Steve Michalik then? He was training with Lou Ferrigno. Then Lou Ferrigno’s … Now was it the producers of Pumping Iron that said, “Let’s bring in Lou’s dad Matty and then we’ll have him as the coach.” And then Steve was kind of out? Was that the way it was?

Randy Roach:

I don’t know exactly why that happened. It was just the way it happened. Matty came in and … Both of them were training at R & J and at this other more hardcore gym. But once Matt Ferrigno came in, all the training switched primarily over to Judy Levine’s R & J Gym.

So that’s when they just … Like I said, Lou said that he and his dad had never trained together. His dad never trained him and when they were done Matt Ferrigno said he never wanted to go to the gym with him again.

It’s a very sad story between Lou and his father. I had no idea that that’s what was going on behind the scene. I had mixed feelings with Lou’s book in 1994. I thought, “You know, was it a good thing to air that out in front of everybody?” But at the same time you feel like, wow! It was a tough relationship, but nobody watching the movie would have any idea.

Like I said, Pumping Iron was a docu-drama. It wasn’t sheer documentary. It was a lot of, obviously, drama put in there. Even with Waller and Mike Katz with the t-shirt. That was put in afterwards.

John Hansen:

Right. Right.

Randy Roach:

Like Mike told you, he wasn’t happy with that because it made him look like a wimp. Here’s a guy, like he said, he was facing a 200 pound lineman. He said what’s going to worry him about somebody taking his t-shirt? Which made total sense, right?

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

I had no idea. I had no idea that … I had heard in an interview too, way back, where Ken Waller said, “There’s no animosity.” He goes, “Mike Katz is my friend, always will be my friend.” He goes … Waller got heckled a few times afterwards when everybody thought he stole poor Mike’s shirt.

John Hansen:

That was in the 1977 Mr. Olympia in Columbus, the year the movie came out. Everybody…

Summer of ’77

Randy Roach:

You were there. You were there weren’t you?

John Hansen:

… Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Randy Roach:

‘Cause didn’t you go to the ’77/’78, end of ’79s Olympia’s?

John Hansen:

Yeah. That’s all of the three that Frank Zane won.

Randy Roach:

Yeah I thought it was amazing that you were … you, as a kid, you were able to catch the Worlds Strongest Man, catch Lou and Franco at the … Was it CBS?

John Hansen:

Yeah, that was amazing. That was Universal; Universal Studios. For those that don’t know the story, I was on vacation with my family and I was only 14 years old and we’re  in Southern California because we were traveling all the way out west by car. It was like a four weeks trip.

When we were in California I wanted to go to Gold’s Gym because I was already into bodybuilding and reading the magazines. We didn’t have time because we were on this strict schedule. You know, we had to go someplace every day in order to cover everything we wanted to cover.

So we were going to Universal Studios one day and it just so happened to be that was the day that they were filming The Worlds Strongest Man Contest for television. Franco and Lou Ferrigno were in the show and Arnold was there to see them; to watch them. So in one day, just by chance, I got to meet the three greatest bodybuilders in the world. Arnold, Franco, and Lou Ferrigno. So that was a crazy twist of fate.

Randy Roach:

That was a great story! That’s why I put it in volume three, book one. I thought, “This is unreal. This is great stuff.”

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

There’s this young kid off to Mr. Olympia three times in a row. You’re not even 20 years old. You’re going to Mr. Olympia’s. Then you’re running into these three guys in 1977 … shooting that show.

You must’ve … Like I said, you must’ve … I thought the irony was that you … It could’ve just been hours or even a day or so you saw Franco before he tore his knee all up.

John Hansen:

Yeah, it had to be … I don’t know when it was, but it had to be the next day or two because they were filming that every day. The one I saw, they were pulling these tram cars. They had this harness around them and they were just pulling the tram cars, but yeah the refrigerator raids must’ve been the next day. I must’ve just missed that.

Randy Roach:

So the next time you see them would be 1981. You sat in the 3rd row or so. So that was great irony there, but …

We got off on a tangent there. What were we talking about before? We-

John Hansen:

Well with Steve Michalik, I was asking about him ’cause he was training with Lou Ferrigno. Then he went into the NABBA Universe, right, that year?

Randy Roach:

… He won in his class. He won in his class.

John Hansen:

He won in his class? Okay.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. He didn’t win overall. Boyer Coe. I think Boyer Coe won the overall. You know who else competed in that one that year? Chet Yorton.

John Hansen:

Oh really? Yeah, you’re right.

Randy Roach:

I believe it was Chet Yorton in ’75 competed. If not … It was ’75 or ’76, he lost to Boyer.

John Hansen:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Randy Roach:

But that was Yorton’s only other contest I think, other than when he beat Arnold in 1966.

John Hansen:

Yeah. Yeah. And then Boyer, by ’76 he was into the IFBB, so he was…

Randy Roach:

That was the transition. That was the year I thought, because that’s when Arnold and Lorimar hooked up and were going to promote the first Mr. Olympia together in Columbus. And they convinced Boyer to come over.

I thought that was the transition when the IFBB Mr. Olympia started to take the prestige away from the NABBA Universe.

John Hansen:

Yeah, it was after Arnold retired. Yeah.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. Because the Olympia before that just wasn’t … Like look at even in ’75 Pretoria. Right up until the last minute it was just Arnold and Lou in the tall class, right, until Serge came in and make it three. And I think there’s only five…

The Controversy

John Hansen:

Yeah. So let’s talk about … Let’s talk about Serge Nubret. What happened with him? Now a lot of people may not know this, they just saw the movie, but Serge was the senior vice president with the IFBB for many years.

Randy Roach:

… Yeah, he was a vice president I think coming in 1970, but he was just the year before through ’74 congress election year he was made senior vice president. And In the book there’s like three renditions of what happened to Serge.

Serge was not a last minute entry. He was in a sense. He was being re-entered at the last minute. And according … Rick Wayne’s version is a little bit funky. I don’t think I … Rick wasn’t there. He just got his story.

But he wrote and he suggested Serge was going in to challenge Ben for his presidency. But that wasn’t election … It was not an election year. The year-

John Hansen:

How often do they hold that election, Randy?

Randy Roach:

… Every four years.

John Hansen:

Every four years.

Randy Roach:

’70, ’74, and then the next one was ’78.

John Hansen:

Okay.

Randy Roach:

Serge did have all the tools to upset Ben in a fair race, but Ben was locking up his presidency for life by putting all the national affiliates ahead of the Weider products and their country, right? So he is basically becoming their employer as well. So he was cementing his … He was never going to get voted out because they’re not going to vote their boss out.

John Hansen:

Did Serge run against Ben Weider in 1970 also? I think Roger Walker told me that story.

Randy Roach:

I don’t … I’ve not heard that. He was made vice president in ’70, but-

John Hansen:

Okay.

Randy Roach:

… at that point that was Oscar State and everything. It was easily … I think Ben was easily … He made the IFBB. Oscar State basically structured the IFBB. Ben was running a name for a number of years, but I think Ben won easily in 1970.

Then in ’74 they never talked about, really, any opposition. Even though when Wayne DeMilia described how it worked in 1978, it was a joke. Like I said, nobody’s going to run against their boss.

But Serge … Rick Wayne thought that Serge was going to threaten to pull out and take the black bodybuilders with them. That they were going to try and embarrass them. Then they found out it was Serge who got the IFBB to compete in Pretoria in the first place. Then they bought his movie.

Like Ken Sprague said, there’s no way the movie should’ve been an issue with Ben Weider. Ben wrote in Brothers of Iron that Serge had been doing porno’s. But he wasn’t doing porno’s. They were like more of adult films and Ben knew about it.

Like Ken Sprague said, Ben knew about Ken in 1975. Ken had told Ben about some of his athletes doing porn for Colt Studio photos. So I think that-

John Hansen:

Let me go back, I mean, when the contest was going to be in Pretoria, South Africa there was some controversy over that right, because it was in a country where they were very racist against black people. It wouldn’t allow the …

And then didn’t Ben Weider send Serge Nubret to South Africa to sort of talk to the president? Or talk to whoever was in charge of bodybuilding in South Africa just to make sure everything would be okay?

Randy Roach:

… In Brothers of Iron, that’s Ben and Joe’s book that was put out in 2006,-

John Hansen:

Right.

Randy Roach:

… there’s no mention of that. Ben talks about meeting with the … Talks had begun in 1973 with Pete Cornoff, the Minister of Sport in South Africa because South Africa had just been brought into the IFBB.

Now when you read Ben’s book, There’s actually even an article back I think in the 1940s, late ’40s magazine, when Ben did this grand tour he said South Africa was one of the first of two countries to come into the IFBB back in 1947.

So what happened in ’48. Whatever happened in South Africa over those years, they were brought back in.

Now Serge Nubret said they discussed bringing them in 1972, but they were … it was voted down. Ben doesn’t mention that. But 1970 … Now that’s when Ben had Serge Nubret go to South Africa and look at the situation where … And Serge went there and made sure certain conditions were going to be met.

That they were going to have a black president and they were going to judge fairly and treat everybody equally. Then Serge was happy. He said, “Okay.” He said, “No it’s good.”

So in 1973 they were voted in, but the question is, they were brought into the IFBB but how did they get the World Championships already assigned to them for 1975 back then? That was the big question. And Rick Wayne said what was speaking there was several hundred thousand dollars.

That South Africa offered the Weider’s a couple hundred grand, which like I said was a ransom at that time. So he basically bought the World Championships for 1975, if that is true. It probably is true, right. So they-

John Hansen:

Wasn’t South Africa banned from the Olympics?

Randy Roach:

… Oh yeah, they were. The UN had sanctions against them. The Olympics were against them. So Ben … Ben usually landed on his feet.

Like even in ’72, going into Baghdad, Iraq. He was Jewish and he was at first told he can’t come. He’s going to have to send somebody else and Ben said, “No, if you’re going to deal with the IFBB, you’re going to deal with me.”

So he was allowed to, but couldn’t fly in through Israel. Mike Katz was worried about it, because it was only a couple weeks earlier that the 11 Israeli athletes were shot in Munich at the ’72 Olympic Games. So it was a political hotbed over there, but Ben pulled it off.

It was well done and everybody … Mike Katz was treated like a God over there. They didn’t care. Like I said, you know all this political crap? It’s amazing how it all disappears when you have commonality, right?

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

There is those guys. Mike Katz is a bodybuilder. They don’t care that he’s Jewish. He’s a bodybuilder, right? Like what they’re doing. So I found that was quite interesting.

Then Ben goes from Iraq, then he jumps into an apartheid South Africa. From the frying pan into the fire. But he pulled it off.

Butler and Gaines were pretty smart to basically avoid the politics. I gave Kit Laughlin in book one of volume three the same latitude, where he didn’t cover a lot of the politics that were going on. ‘Cause how do you do it without getting … without destroying the film?

Even with the movie Pumping Iron, there was no talk of steroids where the book did. But to their defense, how do you deal with it? I thought the challenge for George and Charles in the movie was enough just to define what bodybuilding was to the people.

Let alone, not a how too and, “Oh by the way, here’s your steroids,” and all that stuff. They were probably smart to leave that out. But they also left out the politics that were going on behind the scenes.

And I think Charles … Again, I think George Butler mainly had the say because I don’t believe Rick Wayne’s rendition is accurate. Ben’s rendition is that he told Serge a couple weeks out he can’t compete because he was involved in these films.

John Hansen:

So do you think that Ben Weider wanted Serge Nubret out? And if so, why? Why was Serge all of a sudden on the-

Randy Roach:

That’s why Ben’s rendition doesn’t make any sense.

Now what the other side, Serge Nubret’s side, is that Serge … And there’s another person I spoke to who wanted to remain anonymous that said Serge had been approached by Ben Weider. Apparently …

You got to remember, Serge Nubret was a very smart guy and he was ahead of most people when it came to drugs at that time. He had a lot of money backing him with Paco Ars. Paco was basically … Serge basically pimped for him. Paco would walk out a satchel full of cash soliciting the bodybuilders, but he had a lot of money. So Serge basically got what he wanted.

He was pretty advanced in steroid use at that time. He was in, apparently, incredible condition. He wasn’t going there to go after Ben Weider’s presidency. He wanted to win the Olympia. He was a bodybuilder and he wanted to win.

He was like 212 pounds he said and my source said that Serge told them that Ben approached Serge and asked him to drop out because If he dropped out, he would make sure he got all the fairness and all the promotion for next years Olympia. In fact, he almost guaranteed him a win.

Okay, so why did they want him to drop out? He’s in such good condition that … Okay, remember what we were talking about. Charles and George hardly have any footage of him at all. So you’ve got all this storyline of Arnold and Lou. Arnold and Lou and all of a sudden in comes this other guy and wins? And they’re paying Arnold $50,000 to come back? That’s not what they want.

Randy Roach:

So I wouldn’t be surprised if George had something to do with that. ‘Cause George kind of skirted these questions about … He says they didn’t film Serge strictly for economics. Uh, okay. Jerome Gary said they did get some footage of him. They said they were with Ben.

Well there’s three different versions of the story-

John Hansen:

Yeah, you mentioned that.

Randy Roach:

… Like Serge wanted money.

John Hansen:

They went to Paris for three days, right, and they offered him like $1,000 but he wanted film rights…

Randy Roach:

Rights, yeah.

John Hansen:

Film rights in France?

Randy Roach:

France, yeah. Yep. Jerome Gary said they did catch some footage of him, but again none of it was shown in the movie. So you can’t … To me it was like, okay nobody was going to mow Arnold down. Arnold was in good shape, but Serge was in fantastic shape and he was possibly a threat.

So Serge said that he was devastated the two weeks out and he didn’t do anything. He lost 12 pounds and he said it was visible on him and Ben let him in at the last minute.

What the truth is exactly, I don’t know. I think there’s some rational there because there’s no other reason why that should’ve happened. Because like I said, he wasn’t there, it wasn’t an election year, the films weren’t … they could not have been that big a deal because Ben knew about everybody’s films. Not just Serge’s.

Serge was … There’s that photo and he did look very incredible. Serge from angles, it looks like Mr. Olympia. But when he would … I remember when I could see still, when he was head on he wasn’t as impressive-

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

… when he had … when he was faced straight on to the camera. Where Arnold was incredible facing the … He just exploded with his front double biceps and stuff.

Like I said, nobody was … Even if Serge was there in shape and Arnold was there, it would’ve been a good show. Arnold … To me, you could that Lou was not in condition like Arnold was in ’75. You can see the difference. And like I said, Charles didn’t really have any issues scoring the show.

The overall title … To me, Franco never was a Mr. Olymp … I liked Franco. I was always a fan of his ’cause he was a strong guy power lifting and stuff in his bodybuilding. But he, just to me, didn’t have the aesthetics of a Mr. Olympia. I always thought his arms didn’t match his torso and stuff like that. So I mean, he’s not going to beat Arnold.

John Hansen:

So when it comes to Serge Nubret, Randy, what do you think happened? Do you think that he was looking so good that Ben Weider was actually afraid that he might beat Arnold? Or do you think he was-

Randy Roach:

Yeah, I think he was a potential threat. I think he was a threat to beat Arnold.

John Hansen:

… Okay.

Randy Roach:

Or make it too close for comfort if they’re going to … Judges they easily … You know, they can sway the judging which way they go, but the other ones just don’t make any sense.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

Because if it was the films, if it really was the films that pissed Ben off, why did he let him in at the end? Why did he let him in? Because he only had two competitors? No, he just wouldn’t have let them in.

Randy Roach:

But I mean, I think it was … It’s not that Serge was guaranteed to beat Arnold, but I think they just didn’t want it to be that close. Everything was riding, the money, the film, everything on Arnold’s victory. And Ben and Joe always wanted Arnold down in Tijuana.

When Rick Wayne was having dinner with Eddie Sylvester and Joe Weider he clearly said he’s got too much invested in Arnold to let him lose. So he brought in his own judges down there. That’s why Sylvester was … Ran the WBG the next year at his Mr. International because the IFBB was out.

So, you know-

John Hansen:

Right. That was in 1973 so it seemed like it was political back then. Weider was trying to … Supposedly Weider was trying to sway the judging panel.

But by ’75, do you think it was pretty much judged fairly? And that Arnold might’ve had a chance to lose if Serge Nubret would have came in in great shape?

Randy Roach:

… I still think the judges would’ve just went with Arnold anyways. But I mean, it’s just a matter of if they didn’t want any controversy. That’s all I can think of.

I don’t know for certain, but I mean the other things don’t make sense. Serge did compete and then he was allowed back in. Where with Rick Wayne’s version, Rick Wayne had him threatening to pull out while he was already out. It was he’s just being allowed back in.

And like I said, if my source is … I believe my source, but it’s just a matter of if Serge was being honest with my source, that Ben approached him and asked him to drop out just to make things easier. They just didn’t want … It was like there was too much riding on it. We want it to go smoothly. We don’t want any threats.

Serge, he said the rumors were out that he was lucky. He was 212, ripped to the bone. And like I said, he was … He seemed to be ahead of the rest of the crowd in many ways in drug use. And wouldn’t be surprised if he found some type of cycle that got him pretty big. You know, bigger than normal or the best shape that he’d ever been in anyways.

So we’ll never-

John Hansen:

What’s interesting too is that even though Serge was the senior vice president for the IFBB and he promoted the ’71 Olympia, he was actually allowed to compete in the Olympia in ’72 and ’73. He was pretty much judged fairly. They didn’t give him any favoritism you know, because he was … Even though he was the vice president I think he got 3rd in ’73 to Arnold and Franco. Then he also lost in ’72 to Arnold and Sergio.

Randy Roach:

… Yeah. Yeah, I know. He had lost to these guys before. I mean, everybody competing there had lost to Arnold. But that particular year he was supposed to be in his all time … his all time best.

The ’71 one was bizarre as well with how they would not let Franco compete in the Mr. Universe because of the Mr. World the year before. They wouldn’t let Arnold compete in the NABBA. And then they wouldn’t let Sergio compete in the IFBB, but they let Albert Beckles compete in both.

John Hansen:

Right. Right.

Randy Roach:

Like what’s … It’s like they say … Like Wayne DeMilia said to me. He goes, “Don’t try to figure it out, Randy. It’s like they make the rules as they go. Whatever facilitates business.”

I was asked this question on a show, radio show … I think one of the Carl Lanore shows that … Was Arnold … Sorry, was Joe a pure … If he had his choice would he want to be Mr. Olympia or would he want to be the best publisher, Business handling?

Boyer … Boyer’s a good friend. He said he thinks Joe would’ve wanted the Mr. Olympia. But I said, you know let’s think to Wayne DeMilia, where 10/12 years we’ve been talking. Wayne has nothing personal against either of the Weider’s. He’s banged heads with them, but he had good stories, bad stories. He said to him it’s clear, very clear, yes Joe loved bodybuilding, but he loved business better. Business always trumped the sport.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

Wayne would said, “Joe, why do you want me to do this? Do you realize what you’re asking me to do? This hurts the sport.” Oh, you know … He would do his impression, the Joe Weider one, “You looking  on the cover, Wayne.” He would do his Joe Weider impression.

That’s the way Joe … Joe, he just he loved publishing. He really did love publishing. And Wayne was convinced that bodybuilding took a second seat.

So they would do … They seem to do … If Serge was telling the truth in his manuscript about what he was … what Ben was making him … They were really to relegate Arnold to just a trophy bearer. Serge said that Ben and Joe wanted him to compete against Bill Pearl, because they believed they could beat him. But Serge said no. Our rules say he can’t if we’re going to be a serious organization.

They just ratified their organization and their congress and their constitution the year before in Yugoslavia, ’cause it made the IFBB a legitimate federation. Now they’re just going to blow and throw rules out the window and Serge was actually trying to hold the fort in terms of running the federation like a real sporting federation with Oscar State, right?

John Hansen:

Plus they were also promoting the ’71 Olympia, so he had a … He wanted Arnold to be in it, that’s why.

Randy Roach:

Certainly, yeah. But there’s Albert Beckles that was allowed to compete in both.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

I asked Wayne Gallasch, ’cause Wayne was there at the time. He said because they were challenging NABBA. Albert Beckles was a great athlete. They needed him on their … on the team with the IFBB team challenging NABBA. So they let him do it.

John Hansen:

Yeah and NABBA brought over a big team right, to compete at the IFBB Universe?

Randy Roach:

Yeah and all of these little politics. Look at all of the banning that went on. Those early ’70s people getting banned. They kept good athletes out and they kept the audience from seeing great competition.

Going up to … Just to put Dan Lurie out of business they made sure they held their Olympia on the same day Dan held their show in ’73. They don’t care. They kept Sergio out of the show. So people can’t see these events. Keep putting it out again in ’75. That’s just the way bodybuilding was back then.

John Hansen:

And they were filming something and I’m sure nobody expected it to be the landmark film that it was. And now, 40 years later it’s still an iconic film for sure for all of the bodybuilders. Even the new generation who don’t even probably know who most of these bodybuilders were.

But when they were filming it, I’m sure they had no idea. Then even after they got done filming it, they didn’t have the money to release it? Because it was done filming in ’75, so it really should’ve been released in ’76. But they weren’t able to release until January of ’77.

Randy Roach:

Yeah, 705 got the distribution rights. And still, the way it was distributed, the distributed it differently at the time … It never … I had heard about it and I wanted to see it, but I mean I didn’t get to see it until later, but-

John Hansen:

I saw it at the theater when it came out in ’77, but it was like a small art house theater downtown Chicago. I think there was like five people in the theater.

Randy Roach:

… Yeah. It became more popular … The book is very popular. And the movie within the field was popular.

I think … I still credit Charles Gaines, bodybuilding was coming to public, to bare in public, in the 1970s. I think Charles Gaines George Butler, Schwarzenegger, Arthur Jones, Ken Sprague, later in this decade Wayne DeMilia, and Frank Zane all made the sport that decade. Because George and Charles …

Even The Whitley Museum, these guys were taking bodybuilding and trying to give it credibility. They’re taking it out of the circus ring because Joe and Ben had bodybuilding corralled up in this cartoon caricature. Bombing, blitzing, getting all of the women hanging off of them, and it hurt the sport. It hurt because it made it look more like a circus. And Butler and Gaines were trying to put it out there as an art form.

Randy Roach:

Then when they got Frank and Ed and Schwarzenegger to go in The Whitley Museum, I think in about the spring of ’76, these are whole different venues for bodybuilding.

John Hansen:

Yeah. What was the reason for that? Was it because George Butler … I remember him saying he’d maxed out all of his credit cards getting the film made; traveling to all of the places they had traveled to to film the movie.

So when it came time to release the film, was he just out of money and The Whitney Museum of Art Exhibition, that was a way to raise some money for it? Or raise some awareness?

Randy Roach:

Yeah both, because it was a sellout.

John Hansen:

Yeah, but they weren’t expecting it to be right?

Randy Roach:

I’m not sure what they were expecting, but they were … How many people were coming, but they had a ton of people there. And Corney was still on the cycles. He was probably still looking …

Well Arnold and Frank were substantially smaller.

John Hansen:

Yeah, Arnold was really small.

Randy Roach:

And so Frank was not in condition shape at all.

John Hansen:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Randy Roach:

But they … Like I said, a whole different venue for bodybuilding to be looked at by artists.

John Hansen:

Was that George Butler’s idea to do it at The Whitney Museum?

Randy Roach:

Oh yeah, I would think so. Him and Charles. Like I said, these guys were from outside the sport. They were breaking the cartoon caricature barriers here.

Competitive bodybuilding, it was probably at its zenith. That’s why in volume three, book one I said that Arnold and Franco come back after five years competing out of their era, did they derail it temporarily or not? That’s the question. I’m not saying they did or they didn’t.

I asked the question, did they derail it? That’s why with the cover I have Franco and Arnold with Frank Zane’s image in the background, right?

Randy Roach:

Charles and George were hugely significant for catapulting Arnold. More so than … Joe, I think Joe could not have done it. And I’m not sure Arnold could’ve done it on his own either. ‘Cause Gaines and Butler, they spent a lot of time with Arnold and they mentored him in a number of ways.

Even the bodybuilding … Bodybuilders as a sculpture, that was Charles Gaines talking about that to Arnold. But they were very significant figures in bodybuilding. They came back to do the women as well in 1983.

So then they … Arnold … During those outtakes, Arnold acquired the outtakes in 1991, but very few people saw the 110 hours of footage. There was a lot of stuff on there that Arnold wouldn’t have wanted out public. So it was his language and his behavior.

So that’s why he picked it up in 1991. We knew why he made that 25th anni … For me, I thought certainly he made the 25th anniversary to try to clean up. Try to make excuses because he’s going to run for governor the next year.

John Hansen:

Uh-huh.

Randy Roach:

And he was just clearing the air. I was kind of cynical in volume three as well when I said he reached out to mend fences with Mike Mentzer. I said … He treated Mentzer horribly from some of the things I … In interviews I’d talked with, how Arnold had treated Mike horribly.

But he reached out in 2001, just before Mike’s dad died actually, and I said, “Well did Arnold have remorse? Or was he concerned that Mike was getting very popular again and getting a big audience and he wanted to mend the fences? He didn’t want any negative detractors?”

It’s smart. It was a smart thing to do, if that was the reason. Or I could be wrong. Maybe … But Arnold’s Arnold. I still think he was just mending fences because he was getting into politics. He didn’t want to deal with any negative stuff coming after him later. But you know.

John Hansen:

Yeah. Something you just mentioned there, which I sort of forgot, was all of those hours of film they did. You said they did 110 hours of film. And I remember when Arnold was with that supplement company a couple of years ago and they would show some unseen footage from Pumping Iron. There was some great jewels of cinema that they would show and it would be on public media like Facebook and stuff.

Then I guess he cut ties with that supplement company. So all of those unseen clips of Pumping Iron started to stop, but that would be amazing if he was somehow able to release the footage. That at least he wants everybody to see.

Randy Roach:

Well he should, yeah. There’s some stuff that he does that he can keep out, but I told Michalik when he was still alive, I said he should approach Arnold. Steve would’ve liked to have seen some of the footage.

And I said, “Well Arnold has it. There’s no reason why ….” Well he can … There’s like 110 … That’s a lot of footage, man.

John Hansen:

Oh yeah. Can you imagine?

Randy Roach:

He could put several of those documentaries together about these guys. It’s probably a lot of them training.

And there’s stories … Like, George did a lot of storylines. He did a whole storyline on Ed Corney. He did a storyline on Danny Padilla, based on the show was going to turn out. So I mean, he’s got all of these storylines that are just sitting there doing nothing, right?

John Hansen:

Just the training footage alone has got to be unbelievable.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. So I don’t know why he doesn’t do anything with it. He’s got the money. He’s got … It would be a great thing to do, but I guess nobody’s really asked him why he’s not doing that.

John Hansen:

He’ll be 70 years old this year so why wait?

Randy Roach:

Yeah, I guess he will be turning 70 won’t he?

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

So that’s … Franco’s got to be like 75, 76 now?

John Hansen:

Yeah. I think he’s at least six, or maybe even eight, years older than Arnold.

Randy Roach:

Yeah. It’s hard to believe that they’re at that age. That’s why at this time … They say, well time goes by.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

Which that’s-

John Hansen:

Yeah. The 40th anniversary of Pumping Iron is just an amazing film. I think when they did do the film, I think they did it right and they focused on the personalities involved. Arnold and Mike Katz and Lou Ferrigno and Ken Waller and Ed Corney and Franco and all the rest.

Then the general public, which had all of these preconceived notions of bodybuilding got to see these bodybuilders as human beings. And especially Arnold is a great personality. Then the rivalry between him and Feriggno and how he was able to psych him out and all that.

It just became a fascinating movie to people who knew nothing about bodybuilding. It stood the test of time, you know? Forty years later, like I said, we’ve got all new generations of people who are into the sport now. Even people who aren’t into the sport, they love that movie. It’s like one of the … one of the biggest documentaries probably ever. Sports documentaries at least.

Randy Roach:

… I could still sit down and watch it or listen to it.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

I’ve visually seen it. Now I’ve got to listen to it.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

But yeah, I agree. I think George and Charles took the proper route for the movie. And if you wanted more about bodybuilding, even with the drugs, it was in the book.

John Hansen:

Yeah.

Randy Roach:

They … Charles dealt with the steroids in the book and stuff. So they didn’t really skirt … He said it wasn’t an easy topic to approach the bodybuilders about either. They didn’t want to just right open up to … about it either, that topic.

John Hansen:

Yeah and back then too, I don’t think the general public was really aware of steroids. I don’t think really the public became aware of steroids until the 1988 Olympics when..

Randy Roach:

Yeah. No, I absolutely … You’re right. Like I said, how would they deal with it? Why bother? Where are you going to go with it? What are you going to teach?

Stay with the … Show them what bodybuilding is and forget about that. In the book Charles did deal with it. So they covered all angels and it’s just a classic. Pumping Iron is a classic. The name is classic. And they did a great job.

I really like those guys. I’m really grateful that they gave me the time that they did. And they both gave me a good review of it. So I’m … Like I said, it’s a classic for the sport.

John Hansen:

… Absolutely.

Wrapping Up

John Hansen:

Well Randy, I want to thank you for joining us. And for those that aren’t aware of Muscles, Smoke, and Mirrors please look on Amazon or … You have your own website too, Randy right?

Randy Roach:

Yeah, randyroach.ca.

John Hansen:

Randyroach.ca, okay. So they can go there and they can purchase the book directly from you. Or like I said, probably could get it on Amazon or wherever. But there’s volume one, volume two, volume three and it really has some great insights into the background of bodybuilding. Some things that are never discussed. It really has some great interviews with a lot of the people who made the sport what it is.

So I want to thank you again for joining us Randy. It was great to talk to you. Great to get a lot of the inside information about the movie Pumping Iron and the book Pumping Iron. And we appreciate you joining us. I hope you can be a guest on our show again.

Randy Roach:

Well no problem. Thanks, John. Maybe it won’t be seven years.

John Hansen:

No, no. We won’t make it seven years again.

Randy Roach:

Okay. Thank you.

John Hansen:

All right. Thank you, Randy.

Randy Roach:

Thank you. Bye.

John Hansen:

All right. Thank you again for listening to our first episode of The BodyBuilding Legends Podcast. Thanks to Randy Roach for joining for his great interview.

Join us next week when we’re going to be joined by bodybuilding legend Roger Callard. Roger was around during the golden age of bodybuilding. He was the training partner of Arnold Schwarzenegger. So he’s got some great stories about Arnold and Gold’s Gym and filming the movie Stay Hungry. And a bunch of other stories from hanging around the original Gold’s Gym back in the 1970s.

Thanks again to Old School Labs for sponsoring this Podcast. Just a reminder, again just go to oldschoollabs.com and use the code LEGEND12 at checkout to save you 12% off your purchase. You can also check them out at amazon.com. Old School Labs, supplements that makes sense.

All right guys, we’ll see you again next week. Bodybuilding Legends Podcast.

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